By Anonymous
With regards to the handling of Mesivtas, I am fully aware of the Rebbe’s view on Chinuch Al Taharas Hakoidesh.
As a spectator though, I wonder whether within the confines of Taharas Hakoidesh, there is room for more accountability on Hanholos and students alike.
Mesivta is geared for Bochurim between the ages of 14-17.
Within the confines of a regular school, at the commencement of the year the student walks in with text books, note books and stationery bag. He has a goal as well. When the student adequately masters the curriculum, he has earned the right to move up a grade. He probably has well -worn text and note books to show for it too.
How is that in any way a contradiction to Taharas Hakodesh?
The Torah is vast and beautiful, we have to have a well- thought-out curriculum, and we cannot teach what tickles our fancy in any given year. Furthermore, would it be fair to say that Mesivta bochurim do not graduate a class because they have mastered the knowledge, but merely because they have grown a year older?
Bochurim between the ages of 14-17, respond to success. Success is driven by accomplishment. If a class has no text book, curriculum or passing standard, how possibly could there be any feeling of success or accomplishment? The bochur is simply a customer in a queue, as everyone else in the line moves along, so does he.
Class times have to be rigid. Late nights or late farbrengens should not be grounds for extra time to sleep. For as much as we are imbuing bochurim with chassidishkeit, we also have to be preparing them for life, hopefully the life of a shliach. Any working man or shliach will tell you that the morning after a late night, life happens. You may not have to ask a working man, ask a school-going 14-17 year old.
Mashpiim and Maggidei Shiurim are not vacancies for the unskilled or semi-skilled, they are professional jobs. Teaching and mentoring, I think we should realize is not mivtzoim.
To save this from the clutches of a useless moan. I implore of the Chabad Education brain’s trust, to get together and set up a uniform curriculum, with text books marking sheets and all the other trusted methods of conventional teenage education.
This will not detract from the chassidishkeit of bochurim on a higher standard and does not negate a chinuch “Al Tahars Hakoidesh,” it is merely an idea for more widespread and long-lasting success.
my husband and i decided to look for a solution as apposed to ”banging our heads against the wall” our goal was to create a bais medrash with a balance of quality learning catered to each individual bachur, warm and caring staff,delicious and healthy food,in a cozy hamish environment. time for exercise, music and other constructive pursuits such as hashgacha practice safrus etc. does NOT contradict being a chassideshe bachur. one can be busy with good things and learn in different styles which are conducive to success. The idea of a curriculum is terrific. I would especially like to see… Read more »
Quality over Quantity is our motto here at Bais Torahs Menachem of Los Angeles where we emphasize learning with a lot of chayus and joy!
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MOST YESHIVA HANHOLAS ONLY CARE ABOUT QUANTITY NOT QUALITY.NO ONE CAN CLAIM TO BE ABLE TO LEARN,UNDERSTAND AND REMEMBER SO MUCH TORAH,CHASSIDUS,GEMARAH ETC…WITHOUT TAKING NOTES ,UNDERSTANDING,REVIEWING THEM, MEMORIZING THEM AND BEING TESTED,BOCHURIM SHOULD DO THAT, JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE OLD SCHOOL.THAT ACTUALLY HELPS PEOPLE DEVELOP MANY LEARNING SKILLS(READING ,WRITIING,COMPREHENSION,REASONING,MEMORY…).YES IT MAY TAKE LONGER TO COVER A BLATT OF GEMARAH BUT A PERSON WILL KNOW IT BETTER IN THE END AND IT COULD STAY W/THEM FOR LIFE.THE DAY AT THE YESHIVA IS TOO LONG FOR MOST BOCHURIM.THEY DO NOT HAVE A VARIETY OF SUBJECTS… Read more »
Look, gemara is a DIFFICULT subject. If you want to make a comparison, look at the number of people around you who have been through 10, 15 years of education in English subjects, and yet can still be sub-standard (or sometimes even woefully inept) at basic reading writing and arithmetic, let alone more advanced subjects. Again, gemara is a difficult subject. I agree that more should be done curriculum-wise, but you cannot say that a bochur who comes out of the system is a failure of the system just because he relies on looking up the artscroll translation from time… Read more »
If after 10 years learning Gemmoro and 50% of bochurim can come out without being able to prepare a blat of gemmoro on his own, something is very wrong.
Lemoshol, if a student learns music for 10 years FULL TIME and after TEN YEARS still can’t play a decent piece of music, then something is very VERY wrong.
What you describe is basically: “Yeshivah is a teenager-sitting center designed to keep bochurim frum and off the streets. Any learning skills are just bonus.”
Pathetic. You’re attitude is not part of the solution. It’s the problem.
Those who think that there should be a standardized curriculum of gemara for mesivta bochurim cannot have spent much time learning gemara with mesivta bochurim, or at all. Gemara study is not at all conducive to standardized curriculums, since the same passage of gemara may go from being hard to easy to back again within two or three lines. And that’s without even bringing Rashi, Tosfos, etc. into the picture! Curriculums must come into place in earlier grades, in which children MUST be taught language skills (Lashon HaKoidesh, Hebrew grammar) properly. This will prepare them for taking the bigger steps… Read more »
For all those who are bewailing the low standard of learning that our bochurim come out of yeshivah with, you are clearly missing the point. The success of yeshivah is not seen by the attainment of some standardized level of skills and/or knowledge, but rather in seeing every bochur grow in his own learning and yiras shomayim, and setting him up for continued growth throughout his life. If this means learning gemara from an Artscroll, so be it, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that at all! Having said that however, I do believe that yeshivos should have better systems… Read more »
luks lik no wun frum ulei toiru`s gowing of thu derech
You all make great points
That’s why we need to partner up with Rabbi Zalmy Schneur who heads the Menachem Education Foundation
And is the only one who is making an impact on the standard of the Chinuch for our children.
To learn more go to mymef.org
The problem is that no one even knows the real extent of the problem.
No tests are done to ascertain the success, or lack thereof, of graduates of Lubavitch. There are no statistics to talk of.
As a young married (3.5 years), I can tell you I doubt even 50% of Lubivitch Yeshivah graduates can prepare a blat of gemmoro, iyun or girsa, completely with no aid.
And Aramaic aggadata? Forget it. If 30% can do it no problem, I’ll be very surprised.
Lets get this done!
#52 I am also a product of the Lubavitcher Yeshiva – Minsky division. Who cannot attest to exactly what kind of mess they put us through. While their were a few good rebbis (Baras, Garfinkel, Gorman) most of them were young shnuks straight out of 770 trying to just exercise their control tactics on young naive mesivta boys who got the brunt of it and were ultimately fed up with this terrible system. The losses that the community has experienced due to what you describe is very noticeable as I have friends who left judaism as did I for some… Read more »
your on the ball! shlichus these days is just plainly backwards. in a company the better your skills are then you move up. when it comes to shlichus, it has nothing to do with skills, it has to do with connections. you can be a ignoramous, but if you marry a shliachs daughter or son, you get shlichus! help the system is twisted!
You are 100% right there is no option
If you want shlichus you either buy in to it or marry in to a family that is going to give it to you.
right, spelled wrong, CURRICULUM.
just btw 🙂 no offense
with this whole mesivta article on the side, there is a huge flaw in our system. a bochur goes throught his yeshiva years and finishes smicha, the question is now, what do i do? i know i’m not going to get shlichus bec. i don’t have the connections………..so it comes to a point were i know that i have to make a living after i get married, but how am i sopost to support a family with no skills and nothing to do? if you go to school before you get married then your shidduch goes down the tubes, so… Read more »
I am happy to retract what I wrote in #38 that chabad were nowhere to be seen amongst the contestants at the Shulchan Aruch awards ceremony. I just saw a video of the event, and among the awardees were a group of boys w yechi yarmulkes. I can only assume that they are from chabad yeshivos. i also noticed one of the award distributors to be a chabadnik handing out awards to boys who were dressed in the typical chabad bar-mitzvah hat.
you are all missing the main point. our bochurim are being taught torah and chassidus, but very few bochurim are being taught that the main thing in a bochur is first and foremost to be a MENTSCH!!!!1! there is no stress in that at all. there is chutzpah, no organization in a bochurs life,( i am referring specifically to newyorkers and oholei torah kids.) there is no stress in elementary school or mesivta or zal about being a nice human being, a normal person. we should work on that first, then we will tackle curriculum! alot comes from the home,… Read more »
http://www.greatschools.net/search/search.page?state=NY&q=chabad&type=school It takes between 3-5 years to generate grassroots change. My recommendation is to create an anonymous site similar to the link above whereby parents, alumni, students and adminstration can rate every yeshiva in our system. This will generate change by default whereby parents will be educated as to where they are sending their children causing yeshivos to gain/lose revenue based on enrollment . Over 3-5 years yeshivos that are not responsive will find themselves either with a diminishing student body or with a caliber of bocher and family who just don’t care. Parents who do not wish to be… Read more »
I heard that Tzivos Hashem is working on a curriculum to incorporate all the mentioned systems of accountability, standardized testing etc. for elementary school children.
it’s about time someone does something to raise the level of education for OUR children!!
The problem is that the people who are qualified to teach smell the problems with the system and hesitate to approach. When The yeshivos will take teaching seriously they will turn out good learners.
The Chabad Yeshivos wolud be a LOT better off if there was accounablity and credit instuattions and people to answer with some educational backround vs. just bring anybody in who has no educational backround and just came out of yeshiva and have not much respect for the bochur
The shluchim do make a big impact on nigleh because what makes YG differnet to other yeshivas is the 2 lower shiurim, which the shluchim help out. Also to #55 very well written just to add a point, what makes Yg succesful is that a bochur doesnt have to mold himslef to the yeshiva, the yeshiva molds itself for him and thats why bochurim are able to walk out of there being able to learn. Lets not forget to give Rabbi Engel the kovod he deserves, without him the whole yeshiva would not run. Bring Rabbi Cohen to the rest… Read more »
The basis of YG success in nigleh is NOT dependant on the Shluchim. The shluchim’s nigleh time is devoted to the lowest level of bochurim; those who have a hard time translating basic Hebrew – not even 10% of the student body. The shluchim bring an “avir” of chasidishkeit. But they are not the key of the success in nigleh. The KEY to success comes from the fact that every bochur is placed according to their level and not according to their age. And the atmosphere of challenge and accomplishment such a structure ferments. THAT is the KEY factor. And… Read more »
in my opinion,the mesivta in pittsburgh, is a horrible institution. i don’t like these “chabad” yeshivas that are very formal and run them like they are litvish! the bochurim that come out of pittsburgh are good guys, BUT they are not your warm chassidedshe bochur who went to O.T or a MAIN STREAM yeshiva! it’s hard to explain, but pittsburgh has to put more of “rebbe” in there education! and it not being all about the bochur himself!
no place is perfect and YG leaves loads of room for improvement but their system to dividing the bochurim up according to ability and not age and the streams being fluid (you can go up or down in your shiur depending of performance has a proven track record! In addition the shluchim definitely add to the success of the Yeshiva. Let us only home that YG will address its other issure i.e. chassidus etc. and we will have the best yeshiva and afrer all we must be most prepared as moshiach will come here first
I learnt in Brunoy (2 years), Morristown (1 year), and YG Melbourne (2 years) among others. This subject has bothered me for years. Let me tell you why YG Melbourne stands head and shoulders above ANY other Lubavitcher Yeshivah in the world. In every other Lubavitch Yeshivah the bochur is going “through the system”. There is a well known humorous saying amongst bochurim: “The Yeshivah system is like a conveyor belt.” Unfortunatly, there is much truth in this saying. IOW every bochur goes through the “system” There is no sense of challenge. There is no sense of accomplishment. There is… Read more »
Serious people who can get the job done. This is possible as a 60th year hachlotoh that will have consequential implications for generations to come.
The author is talking about reality, not hot air!
I am an ulminus from Chovevei Torah- UlY. When I learned in the yeshiva , not that many years ago, all they cared about was disciplining us fro coming late. There was noo proper curricilum, no proper teachers, nothing to instill a cheishek for us to learn. But if we chas vshalom entered the building 5 minutes late then the police was standing at the door waiting to peanalize us. They would make us wait for much longer than the amount of time that we were late for to get our ticket (knas)> Eventualy the onlysystem they did instill was… Read more »
i think the author of this article is a product of the system he critisizes
you cannot excpect a system to start with skills in mesivtah. you need to build a foundation if the elementary system has no skills then your child is doomed
and by mesiftah it si too late
I went through the entire yeshiva systome and I can bearly read Hebrew. For the sake of the boys who still have hope I beg you to implment your suggestions.
learn from yg mel
please someone who feels for this cause enough, who has money, should hire a group of smart people, good teachers and PAY THEM to make a curriculum, from 1st grade through Yeshiva Gedola that will be used in ALL Yesivos. Its a matter of prioroties, yes JLI is important and amazing. But so is this!
all the yeshivos that are said to be following a good curriculum and that people want that all yeshivahs should follow. well as far as i know the bouchrim that come out of tronto,staten island,new haven seem to be more chassidesh and learning better then those with the fancy curriculums. not taking away from the other places b/c evreyone needs to go according to there needs
sorta like #41. though it is nice to see such an article and some commenters, until someone actually creates and sustains a school program – whether it is elementary, junior high school, mesivta, zal – any age level, that has standards, curriculum, and accountability to them, nothing will change. action, not talk or words, is the only hope for change. existing systems with “leaders’ who justifiably (because they can’t and won’t step aside or accept full change) perversely hide their ineptitude behind the blanket called “taharas hakodesh” mask, will and can not be part of the cure. but who, dear… Read more »
i wonder were this article writer, was brought up?
what does he think ? he is going to re-invent the wheel ???
With a child in mesivta I couldnt agree more! COL keep on bringing us such well – written, useful, topical articles
so this article is true…but there are certain mesivtas that have a curriculim (spelled wrong prob.) and have a marking system and and are not giving “marks” and diplomas” but they have year long incentives that gives a really big energy to the learning! – starting the next day late after a farby that “hopefully” had a very positive affect on the bochurim is not teaching tham that a long night means a free morning! on the contrary! what a farby can accomplish for a bochur…the regular seder can NOT! – you are majorly right though about that a mesivta… Read more »
As I am in the yeshiva system I can only repeat that which hss being said. Skills, so important to a student are almost totally ignored. In one yeshiva a bochur complained to staff he can’t keep the quota if he learns without artscroll and with an artscroll he will have no skills. The staff said oh no matter, learn with the artscroll. There are tons of bochurim who are behind and Want to learn but cannot because of sheer irresponsibility on part of hanaholos. Not to speak of lack of attention slower bochurim get. It usually takes a week… Read more »
How do these articles help???
I was once a bocher in melbourne and I can tell you that YG Melbournes success is only because they have such good shluchim to back up such a learning system!
Some good points were raised in the article and some of the comments. May I suggest that if the writers of the article REALLY cares, at least let him (or COL) forward all this to the Chinuch Office Director, Rabbi Nochum Kaplan with the demand that these issues should be REALLY delt with by the annual Kinus Hamechanchim / Hamechanchois and let them come up with som improvements in these true points. If any other practical immediate steps can be suggested let them be heard, please. Lets stop speaking and writing here devarim beteilim (like in the past when hothing… Read more »
The point here is that we are not goal driven and w/o curriculum. 1) Sadly i’ve had the sad opportunity of making shiva calls in homes with 17-18 year olds. They didn’t know how to daven for the amud. Because they were never taught how to. On rare occasions they are sent to the amud w/o training and then when they must, they are clueless. 2) Too many bochrim of mesivta age, don’t know how to prepare a blatt gemoro on their own. Then the magid shiur wants to spice up the gemoro w meforshim and he finds himself teaching… Read more »
“yeshivah gedola melbourne” “Lack of reading and writing skills” “The Real and Only Crsis The problem:” “JLI FOR OUR KIDS TOO.” “YESHIAVH GEDOLAH MELBOURNE BY EXAMPLE”
Until all of the above-mentioned commenters open their own Mesivtas, they won’t be happy.
the only solution is to bring yg melbournes method to american mesivtas.
Very good point. As a teacher I can tell you that our yeshivas only care about covering ground not skills. the smarter students will pick up the skill on their own and the weaker ones flounder which effects their self confidence and ultimately very often effects their frumkeit. would you want to stay in something where you were a flop? (If you are tone deaf try going for piano lessons and see what if feels like and how long you last before you drop out) Darkei menachem is making alot of progress with the lower end in teaching them skills… Read more »
It never ceased to amaze me how many lubavitch bochurim who went through the system with chinuch al taharas hakodesh are not able to express themselves adequately, especially in writing, in ANY language (not in yiddish or in loshon hakodesh)
Finally, an article addressing one of the key issues facing our lubavitch education system with a real and fairly simple solution.
great article! you have the same issue with lubaitvh elementary system. lets not mention the lack of reading writing and language skills, which are not taught. (I’m not talking about english specifically).
It boggles my mind how people cant see the ignoramuses (in inyonei torah, vedal..) which are produced.
this is the only real tangible crisis in lubavitch, which can absolutely be fixed. creating an accountable universal curriculum, which can and should al tahras hakokdesh.
I sent my son to Rabbis hellers Yeshiva in Staten Island and was totally happy and the time and effort they gave me and my son makes me sometimes cry that there are still caring people in this world What Reb Zalman and Reb Hillel Heller did and do are truly amazing
Mashpi’im, Roshei Yeshiva, and Maggidei Shiur are all products of our system. Which means that they have as little idea as anyone else where “point A” is, where “point B” is, and how to get from one to the other.
Practically speaking: the amount of Roshei Yeshiva / Maggidei Shiur in Lubavitch who can tell you their “derech halimud” can be counted on one hand. If you’re lucky.
Having read the article, I dont see any tone of critisicm or blame. Everyone knows that parent involvment is whats most important. The author was just raising one of the very important issues in the running of our mesivtas.
WHAT DO THEY DO IN YG MELBOURNE.
WHY DONT YOU TELL US SO WE COULD LEARN AND IMPLEMENT
rabbi choen does alot more for our lubavitch youth then merkos linyonei chinuchs ambassodor for chinuch.
lets bring rabbi choens method to america
What about a Mesivta where the Bochurim see how the Menahel deals with Real Estate during Seder? Is this a Dugma Chaya?
what worked twenty years ago dosant work in todays world its very differnt nowadays with the world and technology moving faster than the speed of sound
I know that everyone learns in melbourne but in lubavitch yiras shomayim and chassidishkeit also have a place!
OUR KIDS TOO CAN BENEFIT FROM JLI COURSES TOO.
MORE VARIETY AND SKILLS (INCLUDING BUT NOT ONLY SUMMARIZING AND GIVING OVER INFORMATION SUCH AS A SICHA, PREPARING A SPEECH AND DVAR TORAH PROPERLY ETC.) HAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF CHINUCH AL TAHARAS HAKODESH. TOO MUCH TIME IS WASTED IN THE PRESENT SYSTEM. ( WHY ARE KIDS WHO GO TO YESHIVA HIGH SCHOOLS AND LEARN LIMUDEI CHOL A HALF A DAY ON PAR WITH BOCHRIM WHO LEARN LIMUDEI KODESH A WHOLE DAY ?- ESPECIALY IN NIGLA..)
Rabbi Cohen needs to travel abroad and teach other mechanchim how to run a succesful yeshiva. Find me one bochur who came out of YG (frum or fry) and can claim he didnt learn. Find me one bochur who came out of YG and claims that hanholah doesnt care for the bochurim over there. I didn’t appreciate YG until i left and saw what was happening in motown,o.t,lets not even start with lubavitch yshiva
I used to be part the hanholo of a yeshiva gedola and it always amazed me to see that (even though they may have been lacking the “lachluchis” etc. )students who had had some high school career were always better when it came to going to sleep on time,keeping seder, tests and general organisation and turned out to be very fine bochurim, a tribute to our moised. (And I’m not neccesariy referring to bochurim of a baal teshuva background).
what do thay do in melbourne that’s so successful?
It very easy to criticize, epically if you don’t put your name on your article!
Blame the system. Blame the world! But NOT your Chinuch that you give to your kids.
When your kids Bochrim come home what do they see? a father learning or doing something else???
Today Bochrim come with 0 x 3 knowledge, about anything from basic Yidishkeit to the most complicated subjects in Judaism.
The Mesivta’s DO and NEED to DO MORE, however a joint effort with the parents IS whats needed!!!
why do u keep using my pic enough
Take a look at pitsburgh they produce fine good yeshiva “chasidsh” bochruim with a engilsh criculem and great educated staff from one of the best Chabad mistvas there are
PS I am not employed there I have just done my homework
i totally agree with your second point but its not only with these mesivtas and chederim but i grew up going to Bais Rivka, they didnt teach us skills and for that reason – a cousin a few years younger then me can open a sicha or a chumesh and know how to transalate and understand it while i cannot
its pretty annoying
Number 12 you hit the nail on the head! Its back to the age-old question: with all the outreach going on how about a bit of inreach so we don’t lose our own?!
I think the needs of each bocher need be met. If a bocher is not the “type” to sit and learn all day then they need to be in a Yeshiva that is fit for them. You can put any bocher in Yeshiva but only in the “right Yeshiva” will they really gain much.
Go to any Yeshiva or mesivta and you will seldom find a set of goals set by the Hanhalla for a curriculum or any measurable knowledge that a bochur should walk away with at the end of the year. The concept is totally froeign to them. A yeshiva is for a bochur who is interested in learing to be able to have another few blatt under his belt, some avoda if heis shayach, and prevention of any other knowledge. The current post -war yeshiva system is the biggest brain drain yiddishkeit has had in history.
One just has to take a look at the highly proffessional JLI curriculum/textbooks to realise that when we want we are very capable of producing a proffessional curriculum. If the Merkoz Linyonei CHINUCH (kishmoi kein hu) were to invest a small fraction of the money and effort used to produce JLI (including recruiting some of the best brains in Lubavitch) into our OWN mesivtas we would have a much more proffessional and successful Mesivta system.
having been through the system, and now as a shliach in touch with kids going through seculer systems, I disagree. Where I agree is that one needs good mechanchim (there are many, but we need more) to motivate students to be excited about what their learning, both nigla chasidus, yediah klolis in yahdus, chasidddishkiet and mentschlichkiet. good tests could be a part of it, as many yeshivas have Where i disagree, is i belive the average masivta or yeshiva kid is much more involved in thier stnot udies even without the textbooks etc (they are not distracted by many thing… Read more »
There is no central “Chabad Education Brain”!
who’se the guy chapping a dremel in the picture — chevra man
Doing my research on mistvas I have come upon the same problem.but I hear that Carol Springs is changing that attutite and instuting a desire and resbonsbality for the bocher.
Well writein article Keep Up The Good Work.
IF WE COULD DO WHAT IS BEING DONE THERE WE WOULD HAVE A PROFESSIONAL YESHIVAH AL TAHARAS HAKODESH.
THIS IS NOT A GUESS BUT A FACT FROM HISTORY AND SOMETHING THAT CONTINUES TILL TODAY.
LET RABBO CHOEN COME AND BRING IS AMAZING SHITA IN CHINUCH TO AMERICA
Very good points.
Main problems with boys’ chinuch in Chabad:
– Lack of curriculum
– They do not teach skills
this wont work for evreyone, a bouchur should learn torah because he wants to and not because he needs to finish a text book. i can tell that this person writing this article has’nt been involved with bouchurim b/c if they were they would know that if you try to force the bouchrim to much they will only start doing thing against you. i know a lot of people dont want to think this, but from expeirence its 100 percent true.
all those those shuluchim and working men that you mentioned once went to mesivta too and they turned out fine
Excellent article but why do you pick on Mesivta bochurim, bochurim of yeshiva gedola also advance (shlichus etc.whether they are ready or not) by merely growing older! (Sometimes with a bit of connections, a bochur wont even have to grow older and may be allowed to go on shlichus a year early! Accountability??Proffesionalism??? We’re too chassidish for that!)
What about mesivtas that take only the elite of the elite, a new misnagdeshe trend that has become in vogue in our so-called chassidishe yeshivas and their minhaelim? This disturbing precedent leaves regular good bochurim no options but to either ‘valger in gass’ or to seek employment?
sounds good — Moshiach will be here before any such measures are taken. EVERYONE seems to like the non accountablility status quo that goes on EVERYWHERE in Chabad at all levels.
The Rebbe pushed for your idea — tests, accountability, standards, proffesionality etc. and its high time they were implemented.