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Sunday, 23 Iyyar, 5786
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Why Don’t We Teach Limudei Chol in Yeshivos

Rabbi Mendel Itzinger, Director of Igud Mesivtos V'Yeshivos Lubavitch, responds to a bochur's question why 'secular studies' are not learned in Yeshiva and his concern for his financial future. Full Story

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OT, ULY. (CH based boys schools)
December 22, 2020 1:13 pm

Not teaching basic life skills, like reading and writing is actually rather silly.

I honestly don’t think there is any good reason for us to deprive boys these things except if you want to keep them away from any other information besides what you tell them yourself (gross and reprehensible)

Basic English is not secular education
Reply to  OT, ULY. (CH based boys schools)
December 22, 2020 7:53 pm

Totally agree

There's Limmudei Chol and there's Limmudei Chol
Reply to  OT, ULY. (CH based boys schools)
December 23, 2020 1:25 am

The article is not about writing and reading English.

And BTW, almost all CH schools, boys and girls, teach English reading and writing (the exceptions are OT and OM, and every parent can choose which school they would like to send their children to. Parents who want their children to spend the entire school time on Limmudei Kodesh are allowed to form such a school, and teach their children reading and writing outside of precious school hours)

Education
December 22, 2020 1:14 pm

I agree about wasting time learning wasteful things. Most people don’t work at what they went to college for in the first place. But I don’t agree at all about basic subjects like reading writing and math. Some history and geography is pretty useful. Too many bochurim have fried out because the system let them down. Shlichus is pretty non existent unless you are related. We can’t send boys out into the world without the basics. Not in the early grades as a 6 or 8th grader can learn in 6 months what it takes a 1st grader 6 years.

Ehhh
Reply to  Education
December 22, 2020 2:28 pm

No offense, but the “too many bochurim have fried out” thing is garbage. Speaking from personal experience, as well as with friends of mine etc (and now bochurim who I work with), majority of the time it’s for other reasons and not because they feel like they need to go to school or get an education. And the proof of that is, that most of them don’t go on to do that. It’s not a “system let me down” problem, it’s a “I wanted to fit in the square system, and had a hard time being less due to pressure… Read more »

Hello
Reply to  Ehhh
December 22, 2020 8:19 pm

So sit back at home and wait for the money to come…how?

Did you read the article?
Reply to  Hello
December 23, 2020 1:30 am

In the right time, when Hashem wants us to support a family (after Chasuna), then it becomes a part of Avodas Hashem to work on getting an income, even if that requires going to a trade school (majority of the 4 years of college isn’t even learning your actual job. Go to trade school or something similar)

Follow up
Reply to  Did you read the article?
December 23, 2020 12:58 pm

And because I’m sincerely curious; how does one pay for the furniture and necessities for his married home? Pay the rent? Buy food?

How?
Reply to  Hello
December 23, 2020 2:22 am

Well, you of course have to make yourself a vessel at the correct time, but to think that your education is what is going to be the source of income, that’s when there are issues. Once the bochur has “finished the system”, there are options. He can teach, tutor, continue learning, join a parent/relative/friend in their career, or even go to school. But the formative years of yeshiva should be spent doing just that: forming the boys into the type of yidden and chassidim that we want them to be. Without the distraction or pressure of (the myth of) needing… Read more »

Amen
Reply to  Education
December 22, 2020 8:18 pm

Well said

Old news
December 22, 2020 1:20 pm

I don’t believe this conversation needs to be repeated 1000 times. what I believe needs to happen is we need to have a system in place when people are ready to start looking for a job, some thing that will be fully equipped and ready to handle people looking to get into the workforce and enable them to earn an honest living.

Math and English ≠ Secular Studies
December 22, 2020 2:03 pm

There is absolutely no justification for Chabad elementary / high schools to not teach math and English! When a bochur is proficient in Math and English by the time he completes the “system” , he avoids YEARS of academic and thus financial struggle. Conversely (and sadly I know this from my personal experience), when a Bochur completes the “system” and then has to hire $$$ private tutors to teach him elementary level studies so that he can pass the basic entry exam and be admitted to university, and then – after being admitted to school – he struggles for years… Read more »

Missed the point
Reply to  Math and English ≠ Secular Studies
December 22, 2020 2:22 pm

You failed to address any argument that he made.

He gave a justification, and you start your comment with “There is absolutely no justification…”.

learning disabilities
Reply to  Math and English ≠ Secular Studies
December 22, 2020 4:29 pm

If he really struggled that much in english studies, then he must have also struggled in chumash and aleph beis. Reading comprehension is not a skill that only applies to english. The solution would have been to get reading help in elementary school.

He actually EXCELLED in chumash and Alef-Beis
Reply to  learning disabilities
December 23, 2020 6:13 pm

Had he been introduced to English at a younger age, he would’ve also excelled in English.

God bless.

Courses for boys
December 22, 2020 4:01 pm

I agree that we need to protect our boys as long as possible but I do think that at 23 when the system has finished there needs to be courses for the boys to. Learn trade or something that they luv to do in a kosher environment not all boys or there are not enough shlichus places for the boys

there are bh
Reply to  Courses for boys
December 23, 2020 12:34 pm

There are such courses. They are called trade schools. College is overrated. Learn a trade, not 4 years of trigonometry and Evolution apikursus etc.

Yossi
December 22, 2020 4:01 pm

This article would have been useful 40 years ago. Unfortunately it is no longer the case. Today the very system that the rabbi here champions is the very same one that sends your kids home for a delayed tuition payment. So the Chabad educational program is very self-defeating. You go through the system and the reward is that you can’t send your kids to the same system.
It’s a sad day when the leadership doesn’t realize the facts on the ground.
I speak from experience.

A Chosid with a degree
December 22, 2020 5:02 pm

I like that Rabbi Itzenger is honest here and he lets the Bochur know that he will [most likely] be behind bgashmious later on. Too many of my peers that opted out of limudei chol are nebech living in poverty and resent the system. If a bochur is willing to accept years of misiras nefesh when he is an adult, a husband and a father, all the power to him. At least he’ll always know it was his decision and he made it for the right reasons.

Contribution to Society
December 22, 2020 5:13 pm

What about contributing something to the society in which one lives? To just take for granted that there is a modern infrastructure in place — the foundation of which is math, science, engineering, biology, chemistry, agriculture etc, which we all benefit from, and to contribute almost nothing to it, is both selfish and ultimately self-defeating.

Aha
Reply to  Contribution to Society
December 22, 2020 8:48 pm

I think I see the issue here. You think that being a frum Jew, a chossid, etc., isn’t “contributing something.” You apparently are unaware of the first Rashi on Chumash, that the world was created בשביל התורה ובשביל ישראל. You know, the same Hashem who created you also created seven billion or so non-Jews in the world, who can contribute חכמה בגוים. But only we can contribute the purpose of all that חכמה. Far from “contributing almost nothing,” that is the key contribution.

Confused
December 22, 2020 5:45 pm

Confused here. If the boy only studies his trade once married. Who is paying the bills/rent on his apartment? Who’s paying for food on his table in his new marriage?
Totally unrealistic

Answer
Reply to  Confused
December 23, 2020 1:37 am

Trade school takes only 3 months (and other trades have other crash courses that can you have you up and running in even less time)
(I know someone who makes +100k a year and never went to college) (it’s me shhh)

Not true
December 22, 2020 6:36 pm

I had full secular education in elementary
and look up to my friends who learned in OT who are in most much more clever ,sharp and successful then others

Crown Heights Career Hub for young Anash men
December 22, 2020 7:00 pm

There is an amazing program for young Anash men in Crown Heights. The Crown Heights Career Hub trains young post-yeshiva Chabad bochurim with the skills they need to get ahead in a career path with a promising future. All aspects of entry level managerial positions plus introductory courses in Amazon sales, E-Security, Bookkeeping and data management are taught. The 6 week training program is followed up with job placement assistance. The program is geared exclusively for Anash bochurim. Please check the website http://www.chcareerhub.org

to the 18 year-old boy
December 22, 2020 7:01 pm

Getting to a level of education that will allow you to apply to college is not going to happen by itself. And the longer you wait, the harder it becomes (trust me, I have experience, I made it into a good college and with a lot of hard work, you can too). Go get working on that GED. You’ve had enough time to gain solid foundations in Yiddishkeit. Now as the Rambam says, the chochom first acquires a trade, then a house, and then a wife. The fool does the opposite.

A fool?
Reply to  to the 18 year-old boy
December 23, 2020 2:18 am

Tell that to the rebbe

Incorrect
Reply to  to the 18 year-old boy
December 23, 2020 11:54 am

The Rebbe notes in an English letter that today’s circumstances are different: “It is true that the rule of the Shulchan Aruch which you quote (first establishing oneself in a business or profession, then buying a house, then taking a bride) would be the ideal procedure. But it has also been explained that this rule applies only when it is practicable. In earlier times, when standards of living were modest, it was possible to establish oneself with a parnassah at a relatively early age. However, in recent generations, if a man were to postpone marriage until he was securely established… Read more »

Basic English is not secular education
December 22, 2020 7:46 pm

Basic english skills, like reading and writing is not secular education. To understand Jewish studies one needs to be able to understand what they are reading and how to write.

Please explain to me why schools don’t teach this basic skill.

Which schools?
Reply to  Basic English is not secular education
December 23, 2020 1:42 am

There are only 2 local schools that don’t teach English reading and writing (and even those children, many of them learn it after school hours, like in Blau’s after school English class) 1 of those 2 schools was founded by the Rebbe, yes our heilige Rebbe, to specifically be this way. The 2nd one was formed by parents who wanted such a school for their children, they have the right to make such a school, other parents can still choose to send to any of the other schools that teach English reading and writing (ULY, ULYOP, DM, etc. or Blau’s… Read more »

Blurring issues
December 22, 2020 7:46 pm

There’s no real structure within an all-Judaic curriculum. What’s really missing from all-Kodesh education is not certain subjects, but providing tools – how to think, how to write, how to self express, a language with rules, a robust vocabulary things that are more easily found in secular curriculum with established standards. So preparing youth doesn’t have to include science and math but should include at least one language and its writing, grammar, spelling, comprehension, and learning math RULES from within any Judaic subject, and learning computer programs like Word and Excel and Quickbooks FOR Judaic subjects so the tools can… Read more »

What?
Reply to  Blurring issues
December 23, 2020 1:47 am

Why can’t a child acquire all those tools in an all-kodesh environment?
Can a child only learn thinking skills while learning triginometry but not while learning Talmud?
Can a child only learn how to self express while learning chemistry, but not while learning Mishnayos?
etc.

ULY
Reply to  Blurring issues
December 23, 2020 1:51 am

ULY Crown Street has an after school program for 7th and 8th graders where they all have laptops and learn Word, Powerpoint, Excel, touchtyping, HTML, etc. all in a Kodesh oriented structure.
This happens after school hours in the students own time at their own will

ya'll strawmaning
December 22, 2020 8:10 pm

The arguments made by the author are against secular studies in yeshiva, not in elementary school

ALFRED E NEWMAN
December 22, 2020 8:57 pm

Of course both should be taught because the generation the Rebbe referred to, by which chol can be studied later, was when the kodesh was of a gold standard. If parents and their kids today had to just rely on the appalling low standards of the chinuch with inadequate role models who simply are not suited or have the patience to teach, and mechanchim prevailing in the system, where the kids come out hating the system, not knowing how to learn, or receive no adequate help to learn, and having no foundation to make parnossah either. How many make it… Read more »

One Word Sums This Up
December 22, 2020 10:55 pm

The fact that the Rabbi can’t even spell McDonald’s is beyond ironic!

These poor boys are being brainwashed by people who have been brainwashed themselves.

There is definitely a type of bochur who doesn’t need secular education but at the same time, we’re literally depriving our children with a future!

Personally, I got out of the system before I got married but I was driven to succeed and at the time, was scorned by so many! Now, I get calls from some of those who scorned me asking for tzedakah. (I gladly give)!

Hello
December 22, 2020 11:28 pm

How is it that non-Chasidim receive a full secular education and are still very frum? It’s possible.

Funny you should mention that
Reply to  Hello
December 23, 2020 10:13 am

Because, b’hashgacha pratis, I just came across an article entitled “The US Yeshiva Day School fraud,” containing the following paragraph: “Looking back at my high school class 17 years after graduation, most of my peers are no longer shomer shabbat, and of the minority that stayed Sabbath observant most have become open orthodox – basically neo-Conservative, even if they call themselves Modern Orthodox. Very few of my high school peers maintained the true Modern Orthodox lifestyle, where Torah comes before Derech Eretz, of their parents. A small sprinkle frummed out and became hareidi.” So no, they aren’t “still very frum”… Read more »

I don’t have money to pay privately tutors
December 22, 2020 11:42 pm

But public schools are too brainwashed too.
I would like to have secular studies here in CH.
math physics chemistry etc … it will help our community to go out of poverty And create our own talented young people. I don’t see any doctor who graduated our ch schools … it’s a pity

chilax
Reply to  I don’t have money to pay privately tutors
December 23, 2020 1:55 am

You don’t have to go all out. Physics and chemistry isn’t what’s going to make your life. Reading, writing and basic math is all you need to get around. It’s not very hard to acquire that and you don’t need to spend fortunes on tutors for that. It’s just reading, writing and basic math, most of which you are probably familiar with already to some extent

From my experience
December 23, 2020 12:15 am

If you’re worried about your financial future, and selling isn’t your thing, trust your gut. Speak to your parents and start working towards your parnassah goals. Think about it: you’re going to be working for 40+ years and you want to be doing something you enjoy and that can bring your family financial security. Start by working towards your GED and if you’re interested in something, e.g. medicine, finance, or programming, start getting experience in it. If it’s medicine, start learning biology and chemistry. There’s no two ways about it, the system is not for everyone and at some point… Read more »

Yawn
December 23, 2020 1:37 am

We’ve heard all this many times before. I am pretty certain that the Rabbis themselves don’t actually believe this. Case in point: if a Yeshivah student would then go on to study a profession and earn lots of money and donate to the Yeshivah, they would still accept the donation despite the unsavory method of sourcing the money. So I wouldn’t worry too much.

Speaking of yeshivah education...
Reply to  Yawn
December 23, 2020 11:19 am

…maybe you need a refresher on l’chatchila vs. bedieved.

Yawn
Reply to  Speaking of yeshivah education...
December 24, 2020 9:54 pm

I see your point, but if b’diavad (not bedieved) is truly inferior then we should be shunning all the doctors, lawyers, campus shluchim and accountants in the community. The fact that those people are actually respected shows that it’s not so bad after all. So my advice to those wishing to pursue a profession is go for it, lay low for a few years while studying and avoid judgmental people, and then enjoy the respect and admiration afterwards.

Ideas!
December 23, 2020 2:50 am

Hey guys! Here’s a list of some ideas of jobs you can do without college diplomas or GEDs etc. (Some of these jobs do require training / certification, but can be completed in just a few months and are open to anyone regardless of their educational background.) Find a job/hobby that you LOVE! Shliach / Rabbi Real estate agent Insurance broker (health, life, car) Store owner (pick your passion: Pizza, flowers, clothing, electronics, fleishigs, anything!) Cashier at your favorite store (or manager, secretary, customer service) Accountant School Teacher / Maggid Shiur / Mashpia EMT Sofer Construction Worker Electrician Plumber Locksmith… Read more »

Anonymous
Reply to  Ideas!
December 23, 2020 6:53 pm

organizer
artist

R S
December 23, 2020 7:11 am

Yossi, I disagree. You are setting this boy up for failure. One needs a balanced approach that will enable a person to gain employment. There is too much poverty in Chabad today for this matter to be swept under the rug in the name of Chasidus.

Problem with kodesh education
December 23, 2020 7:13 am

If people within the kodesh system were to actually receive a proper education, I believe there would be less resentment towards the system. The fact that teachers receive very little training, if any at all, is a shambles. The only qualifications needed seem to be the ability to read Hebrew and being a “chassidisher” yid. Whilst these are important, the ability to transmit information in a meaningful way to the students is essential. I would like to see the kodesh teachers trained to give over lessons to the students in important life topics, such as internet safety, budgeting etc. There’s… Read more »

Not the case anymore
Reply to  Problem with kodesh education
December 23, 2020 12:53 pm

Your basis is factually incorrect.
Most/all melamdim today get qualified training many times over. As well as schools hosting training events, cosponsoring teacher’s attendance of courses (menachem education, the chinuch confrence, etc).
And most/all teachers today are very much judged/hired by how good of a teacher they actually are (more so than in the secular system which can have really bad teachers, as long as they passed this-and-this course)

Problem with kodesh education
Reply to  Not the case anymore
December 24, 2020 6:43 am

Your title says everything “Not the case anymore”, however, this is a VERY recent development. How many of the teachers who qualified on the basis I described above are still in the system (worldwide)?

So sad
December 23, 2020 10:46 am

As I read through this article all that comes up is that I was told this in mesivta, in zal, in smicha, and I wish I used my own logic, and not that of the Shluchim and Rabbis. I did everything right, I was a great student. Worked so hard and it got me nowhere, never got one knas (a sick thing yeshiva does which is to collect money from someone coming late to class) which means I was never late once in 9 years. You speak about this lawyer worrying, etc… What about every bochur who got married after… Read more »

college ain't that different
Reply to  So sad
December 23, 2020 12:45 pm

Once you leave college, none of your professors are going to call you up years later to ask you how you’re doing. I’m not sure where you got that expectation from.
In fact, I’d be more surprised if a college professor reached out to an alumni, than if a teacher/mashpia reached out to an alumni.
PS I hear your frustration though. Hugs.

did you know
Reply to  So sad
December 23, 2020 12:58 pm

The experiences you are describing are not unique to Yeshiva system? A huge percentage of college graduates go through that same experience of struggling financially for several years, (sometimes tremendously worse, being hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt). For all you know, you are very possibly in a better financial situation where you are today than if you would have went to college. College isn’t magic

I agree
December 23, 2020 1:06 pm

I’d like to see what the other side says to this.

at the end of the day...
December 23, 2020 2:08 pm

we have a big enough rebbe which we can rely on that he told us the right way

Bye then
December 23, 2020 3:36 pm

This article is so wrong

  1. Teaching one how to read, write, and have basic math is not limudei chol.
  2. Waiting till one is married to start working only works if you have a wealthy family.
  3. In my opinion, yeshivah teaches boys laziness they sit around doing nothing for hours which affects them after their yeshivah years.

Stop making boys sit in school for 14 hour days and expect them to do something with their lives, the boys need a balance of which yeshiva provides none.

Incorrect
Reply to  Bye then
December 24, 2020 12:12 am

That is complete an-aratzus… The hagdara of limudei chol al pi Tanya etc is exactly that.

Either way the Rebbe’s main point of contention with regard to secular studies is not even their ‘secularity’; rather, the focus of תכלית, i.e education is not centered on your future livelihood rather on knowledge, and more importantly on teaching moral, ethical behaviour for life.

A bochur (who has invested tens of hours into this subject).

why this year is different then all other years
December 23, 2020 11:28 pm

Ten years ago, when a boy was only in yeshiva, at least he was getting the svivah of yeshiva. Nowadays, he is spending much time being negatively influenced by social media. For a 20+ who isnt learning, Better that he should do part time yeshiva and part time job training to keep him busy then too spend his time on the internet.

Hypocrisy
December 24, 2020 3:38 pm

I am waiting for the day that a parent goes to the yeshiva to explain why the can’t pay tuition, and the hanhola will be understanding because the education they provided to the parent did not prepare her for a well paying job.

Until that day, not educating us but then demanding that we pay as if we had well paying jobs is hypocritical. 🙁

The Rebbe's View
December 27, 2020 12:08 am

I’m shocked that majority of the comments here are pro limudei chol! I don’t want to go into the long hashkafic explanations, the most important thing is that we’re all the Rebbe’s chassidim and we all have complete emuna and kabolas ol to the Rebbe’s opinion, and only after someone has a clear knowledge of the Rebbe’s opinion, can he start to see if he understands it, and if not, he should privately ask his personal mashpia to explain it for him, and not ch”v express his own problems or misunderstandings on a public lubavitch forum. The Rebbe made his… Read more »

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