By anonymous
Summertime is a time for children to decompress.
My son, who is at a Yeshivas Kayitz, informed me that his learning director has [partially] docked his participation in activities due to lateness (1-3 minutes late) to learning class.
It really upset me.
After reaching out to the camp director, he got back to me with the info that although my son isn’t disruptive in learning class, he can do better with time and his test scores.
Then, my son informed me that he was being docked for the first hour of the camp trips due to his test scores.
Worse yet, he told me that dozens of other campers were also grounded from their trips along with him for the same reason.
Dear camp staff, please don’t ‘nickel and dime’ the children in your charge for not being great with time, especially during the summer.
Who empowers young bochurim who know little about chinuch to wield such power? These amateur mechanichim are preying upon the most vulnerable; the boys who aren’t thriving. These are, ironically, the boys who need the positive reinforcement the most.
What message are they sending these impressionable boys? Objectively, the Torah is the subject standing between them and their enjoyment. How can they take that achrayus for making the young boys progressively feel more distant from Torah?
If they wish to promote limud hatorah, then find positive ways to incentivize it.
One day, these camp staff [whether flying the banner of a camp or a “Yeshivas Kayitz”] will need to give a din vcheshbon lmaalo for using Smol doche (the left hand pushes away) when Yemin mekareves (the right hand brings close) was in order.
So will the camp directors, who ought to ensure fulfillment of an institutional mission of the Hippocratic oath of do no harm and see to it that all under their charge are on board and actualizing such a mission.
If you really mean it, put your name on the article. Otherwise you’re just another self righteous parent who preaches one side of the story, while having no idea what it takes to get a bunch of bochurim in a somewhat normal program. Would love to see how you would function in their position.
Unfortunately this is not just an issue for younger children. I have a son in a prestigious zal who was told he needs to stay on the side on a trip since he was a few minutes late. This is officially one of the top zals in Chabad not sure why they are doing this to our 19yr olds. Absolutely disgusting.
Prestigious zals don’t go on trips
Perhaps that is the root of the problem to begin with.
It’s not a contradiction to be a prestigious zal and to go on outings once in a while
613tube.com/watch/?v=GXr4gDRF6LE
you should get someone to play and sing this at the camp
all the jews together
Played this and it actually worked!!
Agree
… what would happen if (when?) staff – whether it be of camps or schools – would start writing op eds about what the kids tell them about what happens at home… The parent that puts their child outside because the child is not behaving the way the parent wants.. The parent that raises their voice (or their hand..) at their child.. The parent that told their child (something) instead of respectfully asking.. And let’s be honest, that’s just for appetizers. The point here is not to put down parents c”v, but rather to remind us that it’s very easy… Read more »
that would be lashon hara
Why didn’t you put your name on your comment?.
Some opeds probably shouldn’t even be published.
You have no clue about discipline, you’re probably the reason your son couldn’t care less because you probably raised him without any discipline without any responsibility over his actions.
You are the mechanech of the year, and know everything.
We should only publish your op eds.
What would a parent know about not over disciplining their kid for his “marks” for learning (???) during summer camp?!
I believe it was clearly stated in the article that this is a yeshivas kayitz. Since when does that have anything to do with camp? Just another zman of yeshiva…
This is so right. I’ve been a councillor in 2 camps in different countries and the common theme is, no matter how much you incentivise, most of the kids genuinely don’t stay in line or come on time unless they know that if they come late, they’re going minute for minute on the trip
Stop neglecting your child, it’s time for him to know what a consequence is.
This is done in many camps and YKs that I’ve been to
Further more. Y”K is not camp.the hours throughout the day is split between learning and activities. Mostly learning. Therefore it is and should be stricter than camp as we know it. There’s a reason this parent sent their child to Y”K he needs a boost -respectfully- needs these 2 months to advance in his studies. So much more this discipline is necessary.
Most parents don’t have a choice as to which camp their son attends, especially from the Crown Heights yeshivas.
For most schools it is dictated that they must attend their yeshiva’s summer programs.
‘split between learning and activities’??? That’s the whole problem – there are no activities!! The learning day is over, and the boys have an hour of swimming and a few sports that they may or may not engage in. FOr boys who don’t like sports, or these particular ones, there is nothing but to wander the grounds. PLEASE! These teenagers NEED to have much more to do for fun. Yes, fun! Because if they don’t, they’ll ENDURE the summer, then might ENDURE another year or two ofyeshiva somewhere, and then they’re OUTTA HERE! If you don’t agree with me, why… Read more »
when married men run the program, it looks different. they don’t need to punish in order to produce results. they actually know what there doing.
As any staff member can attest to, no one’s nickel and diming kids who can’t show up on time. These are most likely kids who don’t feel like they need to show up on time to Sefer because they aren’t in yeshiva
As we have heard time and time again some camp councilors have mentally harmed our young boys. It is the responsibility of the camp administration to LISTEN to the parents when they call with a complaint. Investigate and rectify the problem. And if need be dismiss the councilor and NOT send the child home!!!
I’m assuming that if this is happening time and time again, you surely are not still choosing to send your kids to these places and are just worrying to advocate for others.
Or is the responsibility involved only something the camp should worry about?
The ‘good kids’ – and no, they’re not slackers that we’re talking about here in this oped – the good kids from good yeshivas have no choice. This yeshivas kayitz is mandatory.
This is something that happens everywhere, and I’m sure they have positive incentives, but your son probably has chosen not to take part
Why don’t you send your son somewhere else if you don’t like the fact that he has to come on time, behave, and learn
There’s a second side to every story, your sons stories on the phone to you are certainly not the full picture
At work we used to say about arguments. “There are three sides to every argument. Mine yours and the absolute truth. So yeah there ya go !!
This is your chance to give your son some accountability! Can you imagine how much good it would do for your son if you just stayed out of it? Let your son learn the importance of time management. You won’t always be able to bail him out. Let him learn this lesson now when the consequences are trivial…. Read “Bad Therapy” by Abigail Shrier to gain a new perspective.
A major point though is the amount of power given to these young men. It’s beyond belief and I know personally ones that’s ten years later agree they abused that power.
Your kid may be troublesome, maybe not, but these learning directors need someone to be accountable to before they ruin more kids lives
Thank you for expressing yourself so well. You are making a very important point and signing your name is actually not necessary. I hope the camp staff will take this message seriously and change their ways to only positive actions !
Wishing you Yiddishe Chassidishe nachas from your children !
Moshiach now!!!!
When you drop off your kid, you subtly hint to camp director that you’re potentially thinking about sponsoring a new pool. You’ll see how drastically these principled learning directors treat your child. They’re 20-21 years old, they’re children!
obligated to do what you say
what about an acounting in heaven over the bittul torah caused if they dont use any smoal docheh
I agree that summer is a time for kids to loosen up and learn less, as well as be more flexible with their derech eretz
Yes! I just heard that 40% of the camp was docked from his water park trip for ONE HOUR!!!!! I am so so upset that this is the camp environment! Did anyone ask these boys if they are struggling with the material? Did anyone think to see if maybe they didn’t understand what was being taught? Perhaps the teachers style was different to what they are used to? And then after deciding. That such a dramatic punishment was necessary, I’m curious : how did this play out? Did all the “failures” have their names called out in public and bring… Read more »
Wouldn’t be surprised if a lot more failed, and they dealt with many boys one on one so they don’t have to miss out whilst growing individually
It sounds like the solution to this is less discipline and more hefkerkeit
No just more kindness and flexibility
Ridiculous. Parents pay thousands of dollars. These kids are teens and May have a valid reason for coming late – if asked. When my daughter was in camp and was docked for stupidity – she and another few campers were forced to stay on the bus in the Shoprite parking lot. Crazy “trip” is a separate story, but trip it is. A – she should’ve been allowed to remain in camp, B – figure out a positive punishment. I found out about this when a friend called to tell me she saw my daughter locked in the bus when I… Read more »
The counselors should be arrested
At a program my daughter was in there was a big trip being planned for a while. There were some girls docked for various reasons who weren’t going to be allowed to go. The remainder of girls said that if all the girls weren’t allowed to go then they themselves no longer wanted to go because the trip would be ruined by them thinking about the girls who had been left behind.
to leave a human in a bus locked
don’t ever do that, anyone!
i’ve heard many stories of babies and animals dying from being left locked in a car in the summer
Start a camp. See how it goes. Under NO circumstances would I EVER send any kid to your camp.
Maybe the boys have never experienced real accountability, and this is the best thing that ever happened to them? An hour off a trip is a small price to pay for a valuable lesson learned. Perhaps you should be thanking the camp for caring about your child enough to do this. It would be easier for the camp not to dock them, but they want your child to taste success.
These boys have never been made to succeed. Let’s see how many boys pass the last test in camp, and then you’ll find out how lucky these boys are and how much happier they are to have tasted success. The number should be only encourage you to what extent this is necessary
I’m assuming from tone of article, the writer does not appreciate her sons year round Principal either.
This article can be written questioning the method without attacking the age or motive.
Unfortunately, in almost all of our camps, the staff is made up of well meaning and well intentioned but inexperienced bochurim. there are no mechanchim on staff guiding the chinuch in our camps. Our counselors in our overnight camps (both boys and girls) are 16- 18 year old teeenagers with no one to turn to on staff for consistent advice or hadracha. This is a problem in our Yeshivos as well. So much of the time is being supervised by “shluchim” and “eletere bochurim”. Docking from trips is so old school and so ineffective, its hard to believe its still… Read more »
It’s very unfortunate but the fact is that only in Chabad camps is it expected that unmarried young and relatively inexperienced buchurim staff the camps. In almost all other frum camps this is just not the case and should be rectified.
Whats the connection, married or unmarried
That’s because no married man is going to work for room and board plus $50 a week
husband to leave me for a long time and go work away at a camp
You wish staff got that much
Know it all. “So ineffective…still going on in 5784”. You clearly know NOTHING about chinuch. That’s all I have to say.
Are you ready to pay in the tens of thousands for your son to go to camp that professionally trains it’s staff? (And likewise for school.)
I think it would be a good thing, but can you pay what it costs?
It seems to be people are having a hard enough time paying the current rates of camps and schools.
The non Chabad camps charge similar amounts to our camps and some how find the money to hire married staff who come with their families. Do a little research.
I feel your pain!!!! Children are people!!!
Be kind and sensitive try it !!! Some brutality I heard of I have no idea where a frum Lubavitcher even thinks of!!!!
Rebbes camps should use the rebbes methods of liove !!!stop abusing power to get children to comply…. Use some smarts and care…. You may win the battle but you’ll lose the war!!! These children have to live Torah!!! The are hadhems children !
Well said Chana Zeldy.
The tone of most of these comments have “camp staff bochur” written on it.
SAME GOES FOR PRINCIPALS… Is it ok to patch a kid? (yes you read that right)
This comment looks like it was posted from a bochur’s illegal dumbphone with internet. Raise questions??
Yes-they aren’t as experienced as school teachers, but by you sending your son there you obviously understand that, and the kids also understand and take advantage of that for the first little bit until they understand that it’s a serious program then they act accordingly. My son failed the first test after not trying to participate in learning class but after waiting by the trip he started participating in class -it worked like magic! Then this week he just got a 95 on his test. It’s not out there to get them just to guide them to the correct way.… Read more »
It was a simple way to tell the boys that actually we mean business here. They are much better off this way.
Yes-they aren’t as experienced as school teachers, but by you sending your son there you obviously understand that, and the kids also understand and take advantage of that for the first little bit until they understand that it’s a serious program then they act accordingly. My son failed the first test after not trying to participate in learning class but after waiting by the trip he started participating in class -it worked like magic! Then this week he just got a 95 on his test. It’s not out there to get them just to guide them to the correct way.… Read more »
In which he itemizes his son’s struggles? Maybe you advertise your son’s academic challenges on collive, but the parent is 100% right in writing anonymously.
To sign a name for what? So you get to see who is writing this? What חוצפה! This would prob hurt ur son more and the counselors would be even meaner? And.. to think you’re paying good hard earned money as in top dollar to have gotten your son there in the first place. What happened to kindness, caring, and coming from ועשה טוב? They would have your son, and all the other campers eating out of their hands if they would onky act in this manner! Truly shameful and a pity for our children! האב רחמנית!! I hope his… Read more »
But what does discipline even mean in lubavitch? They use words that have no meaning at all! I’m not even going to go into THE actual definition because I’ve been there and done that and the result was in one ear and out the other….
as a learning teacher in camp right now this method works very well and magically if they know that they can miss activities or they already have and know what it feels like, they are much more involved and well-behaved in class and they also enjoy it a lot more. Camp has a reason for everything they do and they are not just doing this to put down your child
In a yechidus, a private audience[1], the Rebbe said to Rabbi Asher A”H Ehrenreich, dean of Bais Yaakov in Boro Park, that at one time it was possible to educate with fear (יראה), today you can only educate with love (אהבה).
JEM program 782 https://tinyurl.com/Chesed-only or scan file:///C:/Users/levi4/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png
Appreciate this so much!
Keep being a Rebbi, you sound like your talmidim are most lucky to have you.
Yasher Koach
So in a short few weeks, how would you make sure the boys understand that rules are to be enforced? Especially boys who are used to rules being suggestions
Zalmy Kudan’s trainings are incredible and when enforced correctly can turn regular people in to professional staff
It’s educating to fear. It’s educating to respect.
I’ve always taught my son to be respectful of people and their time. Coming to class late without an acceptable excuse and/or repeatedly is gneivah. It is stealing other people’s time.
When my son wasn’t ready on time for no reason I made him walk (we lived out of town). It was approximately a mile walk. Sometimes in very warm conditions. He was before bar mitzvah age. Lesson learned.
I meant to write it’s NOT educating to fear. It IS educating to respect.
You make an amazing point.
Feel free to reach out to the director for my cashapp,
All the money will be used for incentives.
If you would reach out to the parent and talk for five minutes in how to achieve hatzlocho al pi darkoi, the parents would be 100% delighted to zelle you the funds to use for those incentives.
Completely not true maybe if you call them they’ll send $18
If you care that much reach out because most parents won’t let them know you want to talk
$18 is enough. It can buy 2-3 cases of soda and if you are a caring reasonable person, a token cold can of soda projects to the child that you notice and recognize his efforts.
Be kind bec its a kid’s summer and memories! Not 4 ur pocket!
The staff was trained by a school principal so it is not surprising that this is their approach. If kids are upset by this approach then it should not be used. You never know how upset and turned off someone could become. There are boys today who are not frum and they say it was because of a mechanech who disciplined them too harshly…An alternative could be to have these bochurim attend an extra farbrengen or two and try to be mechazek them to learn with chayus or reward those who are doing very well with something extra
They are destroying lives. They only allow the perfect kids to have a good time. The kids should be allowed to be treated as potential leaders. Leaders have leeway. A lot of these mistreated kids by yeshivas kayitz camps and schools will be prominent leaders and will never forget the mistreatment by these establishments.
Its ridiculous and the heads of the places too small minded to realize that if they are aware of this and make positive changes it will have a very high financial return once these kids become successful adults. Plain dumb.
I don’t think you were ever in a yk if you think that only the “good” kids have a good time.
The amount of people in the comments who seem to have an opinion that differs from the author is astounding.
There’s nothing frum or chassidish about 18 year old wielding power over 13 year olds and ruining their summer. It’s summer camp, everyone can calm down. If a 13 year old kid isn’t that punctual, you aren’t going to be the one to change that. These are children.
To the people claiming there must be another side, shame on you all. You are all the reason why people don’t speak up when serious things happen.
Shame on those criticizing this parent for pointing out an obvious cruelty that will not have any positive effect on these kids whatsoever. Why don’t these rotten souls attach a name to THEIR demented replies?? What hypocrites. No, there aren’t two sides to every story. You morons sound like CNN. These staff members themselves are on time to absolutely nothing in their personal lives. Ruining kid’s lives does not make you tough or a soldier of Hashem. And btw, our schools don’t even allow parents to send their kids to a camp of their choosing. Good riddance.
Deal with it. This is the metzius.
I think the author of the article kind of blew up the whole situation to a point that her/his sons summer and everyone elses childs summer will be ruined by immature narcisstic 18 year olds. So number one the authors son is in a yeshivas kayitz which is NOT like camp rather a continuation of yeshiva in a slightly less intense environment and number two the staff in these places are much older, who by the way are also people with feelings, are not your average 18 year old that just came out of a being abused in Yeshiva
I’ve sent my boys to lubavtich camps regularly and the only thing they learned is inappropriate words and many other wonderful racist narishkeit . Camp in my eyes is a waste of time and money and I don’t understand the constant pressure to send them.
I’ve never seen much positive come out from most kids in camp
When a child’s in School, he is only under the responsibility of the school from when he enters the campus, in camp on the other hand- the Headstaff have the responsibility of maintaining your child’s safety 24/7. Camp grounds are massive, kids need to be accounted for at all times. If kids just ran their own schedules it would be very unsafe and can would not be able to guarantee your child’s well-being. (Which you would also start complaining about) Imagine your child’s school sent home your 9 year old kid 2 hours early from school without telling you? Would… Read more »
Where’d the op-eds thanking the admins for providing a beautiful campground and stunning experience while they learn ? For having the vision to have a pool sports fresh air while they can learn a few hours a day . Israelis and other bochurim salivate at what their american counterparts are lucky to have. Haven’t seen an op-ed thanking the tireless admins Fact is all camps have somewhat of a docking system . The alternative is hefkeirus. No one wants a hefker camp where u can do what u want. Everyone wants a safe camp and part of establishing timing and… Read more »
I find that this yeshivas kayitz is very punitive and find reasons to punish the boys constantly. It’s about time they change their narrative.
My son is in a camp where there is no learning go on because they don’t want to discipline so the kids talk and laugh and play and learn nothing. My son is extremely frustrated by the pure waist of time. (No he not Mr chassidishkeit. He’s a normal kid).
So yes your son’s camp may be going overboard a bit but doing nothing isn’t good either. These buchorim I’m sure are trying their best. Maybe headstaff need to get involved.
You are 100 percent correct . I have been in chinuch for 60 years. This not the way one is to punish not in yeshiva and not especially in the summer. There are alternate ways to punish. Yitzchok Teitelbaum
This article desreves ten stars!! Our children are our guarantors for our torah and must be treated as so!
As you yourself rightly mentioned, they are guaranteeing our holy Torah.
Thus if they are not properly learning this Torah, as their test scores clearly attest to, it should be the job of the hanhola of the camp to help them understand this holy mission…
I really think that if a bochur is acting out during learning he just needs to be spoken to. This is the Summer time. They should not feel that they are in school. The parents are paying out of there teeth for camp. To take away time from trip is absolutely wrong!!!
I’m in a camp where there is no docking.
So the kids sit in their bunks all day instead of going to even the funnest activities. Forget about davening and learning.
It doesn’t make them happier campers.
Baruch Hashem my days in the system are gone and I don’t have to tolerate the mistreatment. I wouldn’t send my own kids to these institutions either. What the author describes is rather benign compared to the abuse I witnessed and mistreatment I experienced. Not benching loud enough? Slap! Not doing push-ups right? Slap! Theres a minor crease in your neatly folded pile of shirts? The head counselor throws it all out of the cubby at bed-side inspection. Baruch Hashem the days in camp are behind me!
I’m a head staff. I never thought of throwing piles of clothes out. Maybe I’ll try it this coming week…
I get that you’re being facetious. I just hope you don’t leave any lasting scars on those kids. Your brain isn’t fully formed yet.
Thank you for saying what many of us know. Let me add a few examples…. Sending home a child from a broken home because he couldn’t sit thrue the whole shiur even though he didn’t disturb the rest…. Chabad camps have a lot to learn from other very well run camps(not chabad). These better run camps are run by mature adults not kids. My youngest son is in a not chabad camp and it has been the most amazing summer for him. Its very unfortunate that chabad camps can’t get there act together and give these boys a good wholesome… Read more »
Send your kid to a different camp! I mean it in a good way that you should really switch them… I’m not sure where I would be today without the sleep away camps that I went to… They had an everlasting amazing effect on me and I think if you send your kids to such camps you’ll see similar results.
Just want to say thank you to all the dedicated staff which dedicate their summer to give these kids a chassidishe, safe and fun time, yes there are the rare few that over discipline but overall huge shoutout
Can staff in camp get ANY hakoras hatov for dedicating their summer to give your child a great summer even though sometimes there are issues? As if nothing has problems. Wow. Lets get some opeds about staff appreciation. How do you think staff feel when YOU yourself just pump out these articles gaslighting staff? You think it helps? Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and deal with your situation privately instead of broadcasting it and shooting blame.
Just a reminder to wake up and realize that not everything revolves around your child in camp.
Thank you
We’ve made tremendous progress in reducing physical abuse and sxl abuse in camps…but in its place is now emotional abuse and abuse of power. In years from now, we will learn the long term effects this abuse of power has on our children, the same way we are learning the long term effects touching young children has had. To the many yungerleit and the many staff members that support this abuse of power – your name is on the wall of shame in the hearts and neshomos of the children that are witnessing or a product of this abuse. –… Read more »
Regarding the physical abuse etc… however how about so many children are crying internally because they have no one to turn to because no one is willing to face the obvious problem within the community that “mothers are witches “. There is a reason was “mother” became a nightmare word even to say, let alone crying?! There are no tears left for these children.
Bochurim have an effect for the summer which can effect a children’s life yet a mother has an effect that even when she leaves this world the wound is still Ingrained and there…
Why did this camp remove Kluger – a highly reinforcing competitive learning program that rewards its participants ….and its place put weekly tests – with an opportunity to PUNISH, PUNISH and PUNISH. Let’s punish our kids from trips because this is what brings the Rebbe nachas. Let the struggling kids now have to pay for this by losing privileges because this is the Rebbe’s camp…and isn’t this the Rebbe’s shita?
Kluger is only good for certain kids which are good at the game not necessarily who listened in class, besides, if your class losses kluger they won’t learn the rest of the summer, if they think they can’t win the championship
When parents enrol their kid into a summer program, then are upset that the program isn’t what they believe the summer is for. DON’T SEND YOUR KID TO THAT PROGRAM. Once you did, I’m sorry your own program would have had less rules. Maybe you should’ve made one, or maybe there’s a reason you weren’t the one appointed to make one
The problem with this is you are forded to send to their camp. It’s not a choice parents have. Inorder to go to yeshiva next year you need to sign up to their summer program.
In every dispute, those associated with each party are only hearing one side of the story, based on which the opposition will be viewed as wrong and evil. This is how there came to be so much support for (not only Israel but also) Palestine/Hammas, for example (despite how outrageous that is). The fact is though, that in some counselor-camper disputes, the camper is truly a problematic child (whether due to a condition no one can be judged for [unless there was medication that was supposed to but wasn’t being utilised for example] or poor parenting [indeed unfortunate, but not… Read more »
I ask that you not refer to the terrorist Arab entities in the land of Israel as “Palestine.” There is no such country’. Go on.
Kids having to write lines, be publicly yelled at in front of the whole camp, miss activities, day after day. Not ok This doesn’t take away from appreciating the staff for the amazing work that they do, and most of the staff are NOT acting in this way BH, but all staff need to be extra careful before they give out consequences, especially when they are excessive and on a constant basis. It’s also extremely important to find out WHY they may be coming late, or not standing in line by line up, or not davening the whole time, or… Read more »
This camp is just full of negativity
My son is such a rule follower, a real square box and has been punished here multiple times already! Beyond terrible!!! They are destroying my child
The Rambam says sometimes u have to go to other extreme to get to the golden middle path
If everything was hefker u gotta go to other extreme to get to middle path where people know they can’t just ditch and do what they want
Admit that your kid ain’t perfect and deserves the consequence
I completely resonate with the author, as I have had multiple similar damaging experiences that caused great suffering to my family.
These culprits were bochurim who while well meaning had no right to discipline my child. They were 18 and still many years from being parents themselves. They were given a position of authority and the ego was out of control.
Even though I am thankfully years past this abuse, I still have a hard time looking these well intentioned abusers in the eye.
Yakov Saacks
why don’t you just leave camp and not go back next year
camp isn’t for everyone
…. councilors that have no idea what us parents are talking about shame on you negative immature young adults and shame on the adults who hire these people and don’t train them appropriately
When I was a staff member in camp and campers weren’t allowed into canteen (they needed to order from menu at meal time), one of the staff members would throw out the kids with glee who just wanted to sneak in a quick purchase of mountain dew or a popsicle in the summer heat. He would literally salivate at his conquest of seeing the disappointing on the kids faces. Some teenagers have mental issues that cause a certain sadism that increases their dopamines when they inflict suffering on kids. And while there are very caring bochurim staff who do as… Read more »
That when you are sending your child to camp, he is being cared for by young men with very little if any experience. Don’t be surprised when they act unprofessionally or with a lack of empathy or understanding. Is it really their fault? They are uninitiated in the fine nuances of what it takes to really be a teacher or a counselor.
if camps can only afford bochurim with little experience then what do you expect? donate to camps so they can hire at least some experienced/married staff and much of this would be avoided
this goes without saying but obviously a camp mashpia…
What do you suggest? Camp rules: You can be 5 minutes late no problem. 10 minutes late and you get a frown. 20 minutes late and it’s one minute off a trip. I’m sure these kids would have a grand time. I’m curious if you suggested to your son that maybe he come on time? It might be a good skill for life. Better he learn it in 8th grade when the stakes are lower. A camp that takes the time to give out consequences is a camp that cares enough about your kid to risk op-eds from immature parents… Read more »
I was at the airport and arrived 5 min late after they already closed the doors. So they docked me and had to wait for the next flight which was over an hour!
Can you imagine? It’s just 5 minutes.
I always come 2-3 mins late and they still open the boarding door for me.
Why the nickel and diming
Yeshiva is not an airport and missing a flight for coming 5 minutes late is an incredibly stressful experience for us adults. Imagine, if you have to make your flight on time EVERY single day to get to work. It’s enormously stressful. and knowing if you come 5 minutes late, and miss your flight, you’re also missing half your paycheck that you desperately need to support your little children. Every day. Is that fair? If you’d like to use this as an analogy, just picture that perhaps there is an element of stress these 14, 15 and 16 year olds… Read more »
When I was in camp the punishment to coming even one minute late was not to get left out and feel neglected, it was to do something extra and feel accomplished. For example waking up early and saying tehillim, picking up garbage around the camp. I felt awesome accomplishing something extra- but I would feel horrible being left out of an activity. I hope my kids never go to a camp like that
I, believe there are several factors to consider: 1. During the school year, kids often don’t face significant consequences for being late or failing tests. Suddenly, at camp, they are punished to hold them accountable, which can be a shock. 2. The counselors are young and inexperienced, and sometimes make major mistakes. That’s why it’s important to have older educators to guide these young individuals. 3. Everything depends on the attitude of the staff. It’s crucial that staff bring a positive attitude to camp and understand that their role is to provide a good time for the kids and foster… Read more »
Seeking parents who can write the rule book for the camp staff and director and hanhala to follow, obviously the experts. We’re gonna distribute it to all directors, principals, rabbis, teachers, anyone with any authority. However they won’t have to follow it. Just like the rule book the kids and parents get. So it’s a rule in camp come on time, and because this kid was 60 seconds late (I’m sure that’s how long it was, or what he role his mother) there was consequences. Next……. The boy and many boys it says in the article, failed a test, they… Read more »
it’s called TORAH
Time for an AI operated summary of comments (like Amazon has) so we don’t have to read through 100 of them…
The point, especially in the summer camp, but also thoughout the year is not just to fill a child with information. The point is to light the spark that should continuosly burn. This way, not only will the child retain more information, but will build a love of Chassidus that will benefit him and transmit to others for a lifetime.
like rabbi klyne and wolf camp, tzeirei hashluchim, where only adults, married men, have any say at all with discipline. the veteran mechanchim are deeply involved with bedtime, mealtime and davening. the result is a happy calm positive atmosphere. its that simple.
why are frum places using tests for Torah learning, and raffle-style fundraisers? it takes away from Torah lishmah, because instead people are learning and studying to get a good grade on the test, instead of LISHMAH. also when they have a raffle it takes away from tzedakah lishmah, instead people give in order to win a raffle.
You want a camp that has qualified people caring for your child. You also want to not pay as much as that would cost, you’re complaining about the cost as it is. The camp’s struggling to be affordable as it is. It’s unfortunate that we want/deserve things, and things cost money, and money is hard to get. The world can be a very difficult place to get by. But then it’s not really about the back and forth going on in these comments, about the specific issue at hand. More appropriate would be a prayer to G-d to please make… Read more »
I find it kind of funny that half of lubavitch is arguing about chinuch. This is a conversation that has been spoken about for decades, there is no reason ppl still need to be arguing about the same topic. The conclusion to the argument is very simple, it’s a word not to many are familiar with, it’s called TRUST. When you send your kid to a camp or a school, you are TRUSTING the hanhola/camp staff that they will do what’s best for your kid and the moment you don’t have that trust anymore then it’s time for you as… Read more »
one of the most ridiculous things that I’ve ever read. So you see no evil and hear no evil and just have blind faith? I hope that you don’t have children, or they will be exploited and worse, due to your negligence. A parent is a partner with hanhola of a mosod and if they have concerns, they must discuss it with their partners at the mosod. Any have sane mechanech would agree with it being a partnership. If you run business partnerships like you’re suggesting to run chinuch partnerships, you’d be bankrupt in a NY minute.
Our Rebbe doesnt see your comment. You would be ashamed of yourself before Him. Blind faith?! Ever learn chassidus? It’s called bittul. Stop being TOO much in this world . Gotta make G-d part of HIS world and that is called TRUST!
Summer fun and discipline are not a contradiction. On the contrary, discipline provides a safety net for campers to thrive in a wholesome fun environment. Granted that discipline with love goes further than discipline with fear. The premise that being ” punished” for being late is wrong. A child chooses to come on time and he chooses to be late. He decides his destiny. If he knows that his late coming will consist of a “dock” or his late coming may loose him minutes off a trip, he has the power within him to make the right choices. It is… Read more »
One day an article like this will be written And then the camp will face up to the bad decisions they have been making; AND send an email to the parents letting them know that changes have been made for the duration of the summer. Have the humility to accept that this wasn’t right and then stand up and say “we love your kids, we are going to take care of them. Here’s how we are making changes” I think that’s really all that the parents want to hear…. No avoidance, no ignoring calls and emails, no harsh responses. Just… Read more »
One person wrote that the tests are easy. Easy for who? For the majority of the boys, but if the boy has difficulties, who cares? Let the margins be chopped liver as long as the masses were fairly tested.
Also, it seems obvious that the majority of these comments are coming from staff at these camps who are defensive instead of introspective.
Many boys failed and were allowed on the trip if they had made a decent effort. These are the boys who didn’t bother to rock up to class. Know your facts.
My son told me that camp was not so great because of how strict it was and that you miss trips even if you are a few minutes late to class. My son is an honor roll student who wins awards constantly, so I was shocked when he said he missed out on a trip. Some people lack poor time management skills especially at camp where they may not even have a watch, its not the same as school where there’s bells and people directing you where to go. There should be incentives to come on time to class, another… Read more »
bs”d When authority figures are too strict, especially in a time that is supposed to be restorative from the rigors of the year, a person gets turned off to Judaism; doesn’t want as much to participate or identify. And I can see why the writer would not give his name; there is a fear of retaliation, for this honest response to an untenable situation. Campers are human too, not just the staff. Eventually, campers, as they get older, could feel that the nicer people are not to be found in the community. That’s when we start to lose young people,… Read more »
These frivolous op-ed’s about nothing are eye candy to me. I’ve been through most of the system (left in shiur aleph zal) and the ignorant viewpoints over education and raising children has just turned me off. I like to call all of these “official” programs (be they schools, camps, community events) “Chabad Inc.” because they’re antithetical to a healthy lifestyle. Some are surely good but a lot aren’t. I’m old enough to distinct between religion and the way it’s enacted because it wouldn’t be fair to blame all of this on Chabad as many other communities suffer from similar problems.… Read more »