By Yitzchok A. for COLlive
I am writing this piece not G-d forbid with the intent of defaming any particular Yeshiva, Menahel or teacher.
The Yeshivos and their staff work very hard with minimal compensation and appreciation, for our children, and all of us should be grateful for their efforts.
I am writing about a subject that is quite serious and damaging. It affects Yeshiva boys in elementary school in the higher grades 7th and 8th and beyond. I am referring to “The Race to Nowhere” – the obsession with covering as much ground as possible with all subjects whether it be Chumash, Gemoroh and Chassidus.
As far as I am concerned, the goal in educating these young boys is to enable them to be able to learn properly on their own. The only way this can happen is if we provide them with the proper tools when they are young. Learning Chumash and Rashi is NOT easy, learning Gemoroh is VERY difficult and Chassidus is surely a discipline that requires great effort.
For whatever mysterious reason, the Yeshivos feel that they must cover tons of ground with the students and at year’s end, they should be able to declare that they finished 4 Sedrahs, 15 Blatt Gemoroh and 12 Perokim Tanya.
They have successfully finished the race but the race has taken them nowhere. When you sit and review with the student, by and large they have not retained very much and definitely not mastered the skills to learn and understand on their own.
The goal of the Yeshiva should be to enable the boys to truly acquire the ability to “Know How to Learn”. If they learn “How to Learn” when they are young, they will have plenty of time when they are 15, 16 etc. to learn the entire Shas and all Sifrei Chassidus!
However, if they never truly acquire these skills, that can impair them in the future G-d forbid.
I guarantee that a vast majority of parents would be much happier knowing that their son “only” learned 2 or 3 or 4 Blatt the entire year – however, 1) he knows the material perfectly 2) he has picked up the skills necessary to begin learning on his own.
It doesn’t matter what other schools are doing. What is important is that we do the right thing with our kids. Forget about “Kamus” – quantity, and begin focusing on “Eichus” – quality. There is no way a 7th grader can learn 15 Blatt Gemoroh and really know it well. There is no way he can learn 12 Perokim Tanya and understand the concepts clearly. It is simply a Race that leads to Nowhere!
I am writing this article because I have repeatedly over the years attempted to argue this point with principals and teachers, but to no avail.
Perhaps this forum will allow some – positive! – dialogue on this issue that will bring to positive change.
Please do not bash any Yeshivos with your comments or anyone in particular. I have only brought this up to offer an opportunity for POSITIVE and CONCRETE ways to find solutions.
maybe collive could post a list of horaos that the rebbe said guiding what boys and girls should be doing with their time between the ages of 20-25 single?
that would help.
If ur learning Tosfos, Rashba Ritvah, Ran all these Reshonim, then learnin the Achronim that r explainin these Reshonim how could u cover ground. There is eyun & girsa with eyun ur not covering as much & goin in2 the inyan more the concept. However in girsa go as fast as u want. I think in Beis Medrash shouldn’t b learnin Tosfos 4 girsa I don’t know if they still do 12 years ago when I was in yeshivah they did. It slows it down learnin Tosfos. Tosfos should only b 4 Eyun that is it
Two weeks ago the editorial was about how in Yeshiva they learn to slow and don’t cover enough ground.
This weeks flavor: Teach skills, go slowly.
Down with the teachers!
Down with the schools!
Down with the “system”!
Parents are so smart!
Yawn.
$20 k is more than many colleges, is an exorbitant amount and like someone pointed out would be $100,000 a year for a family of 5 (who’s parents graduated the system with no lucrative degree)
2) the teacher has a choice to be a teacher or not. They don’t have a choice to teach wrong because they’re not getting paid as much as they’d like to.
You are correct, students are not getting the skills, but Why?
(in my experience) On day one when the class starts learning, they just open a gemara learn. From then on there is no curriculum other than just moving forward with the gemara.
That is the shtetel way and not the way to teach a subject.
If there were a curriculum that started by teaching concepts using carefully selected sugios in a progressive order of importance and difficulty, then kids will be able to pick up the skills in a comprehensive manor.
first of all, to the commentators who scream not to bash the system and go open your own yeshiva. you have totally missed the point of the article and obviously have not even read the whole thing. if you would have them you would see that the author is not ‘bashing the system’ and is just offering sound advice, for constructive discussion after having been rebuffed by several educators. 2ndly, to all those who claim that the author is ‘out of touch’ with the system, I suggest you head over to your nearest lubavitch elementary school slash mesivta immediately, cuz… Read more »
As a mother of boys who were,unforrtunately,taught at a pace that was far too slow,under the guiise of learning skills,and withwith the insane excuse that ‘the gemmorra says to reviiew things. 101 times’….and watching the bright,excited,enthusiastic youngsters turn off learning and het frustrated from sheer boredom…I disagree with the author. A million percent.if children are not taught,they will get turned out for life.enthusiasm for learnng does not come back.
Learning in eichus would work well if the boys would review and really get to know there stuff. Some intelligent kids have a hard time reviewing there learning because they know it the first time.Also if they would learn 4 blatt a year and we’ll say there is 8 months in the school year that means they will be learning 1 amud a month and a quarter amud a week how can you sit in a class and learn 10 lines of gemara in one week and were not even talking about mefarshim.
with sites and pages like these. People think something is actually accomplished. All that’s accomplished is letting off steam. That;’s a good thing if your objective is feeling better. But if you have an objective like changing edcuational methods, this ain’t the place/venue. Like a school is going to change something it thinks is holy because xyz.com posted an anopnymous missive and had 1000 anonymous responses (of which 50% supported the school)!? I happen to agree with the article’s point and emphatically disagree with current “teaching” methodologies, but will not feel any better having read the piece, responses or my… Read more »
As a person who has worked in special education in Crown Heights for 8 years with children of varying abilities, I can testify that covering the ground as a tool to give the skills for independent Torah learning only works for the very bright. The children in the middle and the weaker students compromise on their aichus when they go too fast in kamus in the beginning stages. When they go slower and use the material to focus on the decoding skills, they are able to absorb them properly for the future so that in the long run they will… Read more »
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND…..they know how to learn but did they get that from there Yeshivas or from home…..
We have some very interesting comments here. I am a teacher, with an advanced degree (not that that ensures a good teacher, necessarily); but I do think I have lots of references and resources, having been exposed to an in-depth exposure to this subject. So my response is this: If kids are asked to learn something in only one way and in only the same time frame, that is almost a guarantee that the optimal outcome will be less than desired. The reason for that is that not all students learn at the same rate. Not all students learn in… Read more »
It is quite abvious that the author is 100% correct. Mindless pace without first ensuring that the Talmid is on the train (meaning he has the necessary tools to read and comprehend etc.) is simply foolish. Having said that, I look at my own son who was given the same lack of tools, but showed great interest and Horoved #32 – and now I look at him and see someone “Vos Ken Lernen” so clearly Horoving will bring Hatzlocho. One does not negate the other and the author’s point still stands.
Wow! There are certainly lots of people hot under the collar here!!
The author makes an EXCELLENT point. We need to develop skills, habits and midos. The rest will come. I have been saying this for years as a teacher.
9/10 kids finishing elementary cannot translate the sham, and it doesn’t get much better by grade 9
I know tons of bochurim that know how to learn
Here we go: blame the system… check out comment #20 If it is as you are saying that your son was on top of his class in 8th. grade and then it crashed in Mesivta, there is something YOU are missing. I would suggest that he may have only been on top of his class in being able to “spit back information” thus getting top grades but his skills must have been rutting away. I am curious to know if you ever had your son read to you a simple Posuk of Chumash and Rash”I when he was in 8th.… Read more »
I agree with author 100 % . my son goes to a top Mesivta and I am paying full tuition, and he lost any chayshek in learning from being there, he was a top of is class in elementary and thank to our system he is now lost is drive and want to go to college were he can do better. please keep in mind we teach our kids Chinese most of the day, they need artscroll gemoros because they don’t speak Hebrew or Aramaic, so most of their efforts goes to translating not COMPRENSION, this is sad. Also please… Read more »
school should be learning how to learn and not just covering ground.
I agree, girls too. You may say Chitas for the rest of your life, but if your using a engllich Chumash its a chaval on the teacher who crippled you for life.
Your have to know your chumash ladies like you know the purple cookbook 🙂
If you cant change the system at least beat it, learn on your own.
thanks for your input, which comes from practical experience, unlike many of the other comments. to the author, I agree. You sound like the right person to write a curriculum for our schools. We have too many kids that barely read and are expected to do Chumish and Rashi etc. etc. I hope you will find strength to rectify “the race to no where”. Only the ones who feel strongly enough can
improve what needs improvement.
I totally agree that our focus must be in imparting skills, learning and thinking skills. (As well as social skills, ahavas yisroel etc).
I also believe that exercising those skills develops them more. That means covering a certain amount of ground.
I think the main issue in schools is the lack of clear, specific and detailed objectives. What does the melamed want the children to know, be able to do, etc.
this has been my gripe for a long time. i also feel like a big part of the responsibility lies with the preschool teachers that teach the children reading. many of them are lacking essential kriah skills and that keeps them behind as they go through the elementary grades and beyond. in english there is continual instruction in reading but when it comes to loshon kodesh that stops in first or second grade where the emphasis is placed on learning as many parshyios of chumash as possible in that time span.
I had mashpiyim that could not explain the 10 sfeiros. it has to be done on a blackboard over a full year period. how can we go on slechus and not know this very well.
There is no doubt in my mind that the author is right on the money. The Yeshivos must give the Talmidim the tools and not focus so much on Kamus.To #20, you have to relax and not take the article so personally – it doesn’t seem to me to have been written with animosity or condemnation – just making a valid point. #20 is absolutely correct in that parents need to show their children their own interest in learning. Finally #32 makes a great point that Talmidim must know that tremendous Yegiyah is necessary to become a Lamdan and Maskil… Read more »
i deal with misifta kids all day from all type of family backgrounds. i learn with kids that dont have a clue whats flying when it comes to gemoroh or chassidius. a lot of teachers expect the kids to be holding a certain level when there not, and the kids space out most of the time. the kids have zero geshmack in learning because they just don’t get it. if you give them the skills they will feel more accomplished and they will want to learn. instead yeshiva is considered like prison and the greatest dream is when they will… Read more »
As someone called “a mechanech with experience”, by the Rebbe, let me add/ without referring specifically to material written here. 1) When chinuch is a pnimiyusdikeh endeavor, and not a “showcase” oriented enterprise, then many things change. 2) How much ground is covered is not a static benchmark. It could (and often should) change from situation to situation. The local kind of talmidim, the size of the class, and the nature of the Melamed-Maggid Shiur. (NOT including his ability, but the way his brain works. Talmidim gain from learning in different styles.) 3) Satisfying parents or talmidim is secondary to… Read more »
some kids have it easy to catch gemorah some have a challenge. it starts when they r young. i have a son who has good learning skills B;H. however i still need to teach him how to learn and the rabbe is doing a great job as well. the bottom line is stay on top of ur kids progress as they grow. see where he needs help in understanding etc and he will know how to learn
rabbi heller had it right.
We are in a different generation. No one has mentioned that with all the new technology….computers, cellphones, ipods, facebook etc…the attention span of an indivdual has decreased and kids get sidetracked with all other stimuli that doesn’t allow them to concentrate and focus the way we as Parents used to be able to do. Teachers today have a harder job keeping their students focused and compete with all the other garbage out there that gets our childrens attention.
so far in this thread it sounds like it is all black or white some kids can learn that amount, and some (depending on the class) can’t are there different levels in each school? mostly not what we need is large schools which have the ability to split the class up into 10 classes so that each kid can learn on his own leave, instead of having his ability grouped into whatever everyone else is doing. does any teacher have a class where he can teach 1 lessen 400 times without losing everyone? if schools were larger we also wouldn’t… Read more »
First- Yosher Koach to the author. I did not read all the comments, but to # 7 I say, its not about if you are the smartest- its about many other things- how do you work with pressure? what is it like in your home, when parents heard that so and so learned x and you only learned y (or scored.. on this type of learning, with so much to know and so quickly…) I also want to add that there is a common misconception that “Practice makes Perfect” it does not- Practice makes Permanent” and if the practice is… Read more »
The Alter Rebbe in Hilchas Talmud Torah
writes that today it is important and emphasis should be on teaching the talmidim how to learn on their own
The reality is that “ain ha’tora miskaymin ela bmi sh’maimis atzmo aleihen” you need to work and toil, and yagata um’atzsa tamin. I am positive that if you go to any one who knows Torah, it is not because of methods or teachers but “pashut horivanya’. True methods maybe help, but methods aren’t the secret. If you wan’t your children to be “lamdonim”, they need to see that you love learning and “horiveh” in learning. This is the greatest lesson that one can impart to their children, if you work hard you will find! (just to point that the Rebbe’s… Read more »
This is the method that Darchai Menachem employs. My son has learned so well there that he can take regular every day issues that come up and apply what he had learnt in gemarah. He has not only retained the information but he clearly understands it and can take from it its true meaning, which is the point of gemarah. Students learn in groups, each on his own level. For all of you who think Darchai is only for special needs or problem kids, YOU ARE SO WRONG. Nothing could be further than the truth. For those of you worried… Read more »
it is the bochur fault he is given all the help that he will need and if he does not know it is he’s fault not the systems fault!
i have been to 3 Yeshivas and have seen how bochurim spend there time! it is all in the bochurs hands!
great idea
and where can the family with 10 kids pay this ???
THE FACT THAT MOST ROSHI YESHIVA ARE MORE CONCURRED WITH WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF THEIR SCHOOL THEN THE STUDENTS THAT MAKE UP THE SCHOOL.(I Apologize for the screaming but people need to know)I was in a respected Zal where most of the the buchurim had a lot of “Sfaycos in Emuna”. The rosh yeshiva said that we needed to cover the whole “mesechta” that year why …? So that if someone came over to you and asked you what you did that year you could tell them I learnt the whole “mesechta”. Did it cross his mind that most of… Read more »
I agree with the author, thankfully I did pick up on the learning skills, however if I look at the majority of my friends that went to the same school system, and may have even completed more time in yeshiva then myself, they still dont have the basic learning skills to be able to open up a new sefer and understand what its talking about. Another note is also instilling yiras shomayim, many talmidim go through the entire system, some even after getting semicha still dont have any yirs shamayim and study it more just as a nice concept, or… Read more »
lets say the author is true – i don’t see the problem. if you dont want to learn, then don’t go to school. its that simple! i think its pathetic to complain that they are learning too much. im a health professional student. you think they learn alot? we learn SO much medicine in a single class, and have an entire semester of it. stop complaining!
Your comments concerning what the children see at home vis-a-vis learning are completely accurate in my opinion. While it is certainly true that there may be those students who simply lack the ability to learn beyond the minimum but that is a subject for another day. Having goals for a quantum of learning in a particular z’man is of course admirable but most mechanchim are ready willing and able to modify those goals as need be l’toeles hatalmidim. In and of itself I believe that seeking to cover a certain amount of material not only contributes to the develoment of… Read more »
Well if u were ever in mesivtah like I am now you will now that they tell you countless times that your older now and your supposed to learn much more
My father never learned one day of his life with me and I turned out just fine.
that kamus IS eichus
The current Yeshiva system leaves a lot to be desired. That being said, it accomplishes pretty much the best it can achieve with the paltry sums of money they operate on.
You want GREAT EDUCATION? Open a Yeshiva where every student WITHOUT EXCEPTION pays full tuition of $20,000+. Then the Yeshiva will be able to hire the full staff it needs to design proper curriculums and give students the necessary personal attention.
This comment is not to the Author of this Op-Ed it does not need a response, it is clear that he has no clue as to what’s going on in the schools. This comment is to all the geniuses that are going to begin now with their ritual litany of comments and blame to and about our “school system”. Why don’t all you geniuses that have all the answers to every problem in Chinuch finally open your own Yeshivos and Chadorim and teach us, lazy sloppy educators how it’s done. It is no secret to us educators how many of… Read more »
Let’s say there’s a bochur whose not good at memorizing (which is what is necessary for retaining all the ground that u covered) he begins to hate the system. Gemmorah becomes a nightmare because its all based on memorization. So he goes through the system hating gemmorah and will never succeed. However, if the learning was to acquire a skill and not based entirely on memorizing even this bochur can say I’m not good at memorizing but at least I can and have the tools to learn and will be able to face any challenge in this area when he… Read more »
In the early years of school ur suposto learn alot of info so u can know alot ofgenarel things if u dont know alot then ull never be able to learn on ur own , in the later years like 2nd & 3rd yr of mesivtah is when u should start learning how to learn but that basecly comes from thinking on ur own , and thats not somthing someone could teach u how to do , u need to do it and practice makes perfect …. The bigger prob is that there r lots of bochrim that r not… Read more »
Since different parents have different opinions on this and since principals are not changing their positions, why not get like-minded parents to open up a school that will teach the skills properly.
There are effective ways to develop skills. Are these means being used? I don’t know. One simple skill – learning the teitch of individual words, whether in Chumash, Gemoro, or Pirush Hamilos. There are systems that work to develop vocabulary skills of ALL students. The weak become average, the average – strong, and the excellent, excellenter. Learning large amounts of information will not, by itself, develop these skills. I start with vocabulary because it is such a difficult area, but if done consistently, it becomes fun for the students – and it works without tests.
9 out of t10 bochrim that spend 20 years in yishiva CAN NOT explain (besides repeat the Hebrew word) what the 10 sfiros really mean were they can explain it to a third party and that person will understand what hes saying. YES ITS THE YISHIVOS FUALT!
I totally agree with the author and firmly maintain that today’s mechanchim are misguiding our children. And to #2 just because you learnt 12 blot doesn’t mean we should base our entire chinuch system on craming tons of information into our children. Teaching them how to learn is the only way to ensure successful and meaningful lives for them. I wish the author much success in his goal.
i went to an out of town school. We did not cover so much as we started moving up the grades, rather we learned at a slower pace and had a very valuable lessons on how to learn chumash and the like. We figured out how to ask our own questions and worked to break down meforshim and sichos. After one or two years of a slower more intensive learning we had all the skills we needed to help us learn on our own and start moving at a faster pace. Good job to the author! It is a well… Read more »
There is another part to learning that you overlooked in the article. In order to retain and enjoy learning a father has to have a geshnak in learning and make time for his son. Whether it is to review the lessons or to learn something new it effects the feelings a child has towards learning.,
I totally agree with the author. Very well said. It is a very serious concern. I wish the focus is creating strong skills that our children will love and yearn to learn once they are past Yeshivah years. Much nachas for all!!
Knowing how to learn gemorah comes mostly from experience. yes there is teachers guidance involved, but that is not nearly enough to teach a bochur how to learn on his own. Rather it comes mostly from being familiar with the loshon Hagemora. so covering 4 daf gemora throughout the year and “aquiring the tools” doesn’t accomplish much. So what if he doesn’t remember every thing the Gemora says? yes it”s important but it doesn’t take away or go to waist all that he learned, b/c in the end of the day he became more familiar with the way the Gemorah… Read more »
to the author – your article tells us readers how out-of-touch you are with what is happaning in the schools today.
I won’t go into detail as to explain why – because that would be an article for itself.
The issues are much deeper. We can’t only blame the school’s, We can’t only blame the parents, We can’t only blame the Students. Its all of the above and more.
WE NEED MOSHIACH NOW that’s the only answer
To the author:
I have hone through Yeshiva, and have experienced the exact opposite of what you are talking about.
Every year since 7th grade, learning has always been on a very calm, careful pace.
In elementary, we typically covered no more than a single Perek of Gemara in an entire school year.
Parents were complaining that we were not covering MORE ground!!!
Clearly, you are completely out of touch with what is going on in the schools.
you know nothing
In Oholei Torah, in the 8th grade there’s one teacher that started a new method of learning, it’s learning and retaining what they’ve learnt. So far so good B”H, the boys were tested on an entire pairik of gemoro they began learning in Elul, results were impressive, B’H.
thank you for bringing this issue to light.
i disagree with #1. information can be forgotten but skills learned properly remain forever. chinuch is to teach skills in addition to the core information.
There is a mitzvah mid’oraisa to know the entire Torah. This is accomplished through learning and retaining a lot of quantity. If that is the goal of these Yeshivas, it is much closer to somewhere than learning the so-called “tools” everyone is clamoring for.
However, if you say that even what they learn they don’t retain, well that’s another problem entirely.
There is a misconception about “learning how to learn”. Contemporary studies by leading educational psychologists and cognitive scientists point repeatedly to learning how to think through learning large amounts of information. Among the reasons is that our brains process information by comparing it to other, previously known facts and ideas, this allows our brains to quickly grasp similarities and differences, making the learning process smoother. There are other reasons as well. True the information must be accurate (true) not false to be of any benefit, yet the emphasis should be on accumulating knowledge. And when we were in seventh grade… Read more »
Knowing how to learn comes from learning a lot. That mainly happens after schooling. Schooling is sometimes about cramming tons and tons of information into the minds of the children in hopes that it may spark them to continue on their own (after schooling). When that happens, that’s when they’ll truly begin to learn “how to learn”. Contrary to popular opinion, schooling is not about learning how to learn.