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Friday, 27 Sivan, 5786
  |  June 12, 2026

The Combative Approach to Tznius

Op-Ed: When the over-exhausted topic of Tznius comes up, I feel like I have suddenly been transported to a whole other version of Judaism. Full Story

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Why is everyone dissing?
January 10, 2015 11:44 pm

This girl is AMAZING!! Finally, someone who sounds like me!!
Seriously….

YOU GO GIRL!!

THIS link should work
May 1, 2013 11:41 pm
Tznius Education online
May 1, 2013 11:03 am

I have found the following place to have a chockful of information and education on Tznius,

http://bit.ly/13064dB

and the whole section has been dedicated to the pidyon shvuyim of Wendy Runge. May her redemption be now.

215 (corrected verssion)
May 1, 2013 12:47 am

to 211 (aka to anyone who is untznius in public), this is meant with love… No one is trying to upset you chas veshalom! No one is trying to say you have self esteem issues, They were just pointing out a general truth, “that people with low self esteem tend to resort to using un-tznius to compensate… This is not only true in frum circles, it’s a universal phenomena! in all cultures and societies. When women are desperate for attention or have serious self esteem issues they tend to dress less modestly! This gives them a shallow fleeting sense of… Read more »

To 211 your proving the obvious my dear!
April 30, 2013 11:41 pm

Im not from those who are especially vocal re tznius as a factor in public safety “protection against tragedy” etc
However, you gotta respect those who take these Torah warnings seriously! Considering all the misery on the increase L”O

to 211
April 30, 2013 1:57 pm

you are taking this way too personally to fool us. what else is keeping you back from dressing tznius, except for the fact that you care about what others think of how you dress??? if you would be strong enough you would be able to control yourself and dress according to halacha, and maybe then some….

to#212
April 30, 2013 9:29 am

Global phenomena? Really? People with high self-esteem become arrogant and condescending.

to 211 with love
April 30, 2013 2:45 am

No one is trying to upset you! No one is trying to say you have self esteem issues They were just making general observations that people with low self esteem tend to resort to using tznius to compensate This is not only true in frum circles, it’s a global phenomena! Know this, when you get all defensive online, you sort of reinforce the public perception that you are rebellious or needy for everyone’s approval. Why not take some time to think about why this triggered such a strong reaction in yourself, you will surely grow from that exercise Good luck… Read more »

thank you
April 29, 2013 11:28 pm

thank you to the writer for writing this
and btw #8 the word “tznuah” is not modest , it’s private

Outraged!!!
April 29, 2013 7:44 pm

I hate when ppl think they know me just bec of my borderline dress style!!
First of all I have no self esteem problems! As a matter of fact I have an excellent self esteem and I don’t need anybodys approval for anything
God gave free choice so stop thinking that we’re selfish and rebellious, it’s my own style and I’m entitled to my own free choice! Now leave it alone will you!?!!

To 207 well put!
April 29, 2013 7:29 pm

Instead of judging those who have this struggle as being “inconsiderate to the publice” or “having low self image issues” lets instead find discrete sensitive ways to explain to them what’s at steak.

I don’t think it’s useful to simply tell them how others view them, since someone with low self esteem, unable to be objectively in touch with how they come across to others, what they need instead is more love and more warmth from those closest to them, only Ahavas yisroel can help them overcome this type of challenge!

We want Moshiach Now!

The Rebbe has the balance approach
April 29, 2013 7:09 pm

The Rebbe emphasized the major Brachos for tznius and the unfortunate consequences Chazal link to the opposite lot alenu

If you truly love someone you tell them the uncomfortable truth they need to know in a sensitive and loving manner

Let’s follow the Rebbe’s example

Halacha is very clear
April 29, 2013 7:05 pm

For those who take the time to study it

Moshiach now!

Yup tznius is a public service
April 29, 2013 7:02 pm

Bringing blessings and Saftey to the entire neighborhood!
Tznius specifically prevents untimely tragedies! By attracting devine protection

204 tyvm for emphasizing the positive
April 29, 2013 6:56 pm

why talk about the harm of untznius when u can highlight the brachos from keeping tznius

truth is
April 29, 2013 6:35 pm

The trouth is, the world is up side down.
Nobody knows anything, we are all confused.
So there are going to be thousands of different opinions.
What i think, inmy.own confusion, is that tznius is avery delicate matter. Its true there are definite rules from the shulchan.oruch, but many things need some common sense: brown nail polish; good or bad? Tjere is no answer to this. It depends on who u are, what age, what you are wearing.
And similar things.
This is my little opinion.
~ a 17 year old girl ~

try
April 29, 2013 5:32 pm

For the sake of all the brachos the Rebbe promissed to u, ur family and community!

Do it for all the positive promised in torah to a community that is Tznius

look attractive , not attracting!
April 29, 2013 4:15 pm

As a rebbetzin in a very secular community, i have always taken it as a huge compliment when people tell me , i dont look like a rebbetzin. They mean , I dont look like what they imagine a Rebbetzin to look like, frumpy frumy. I always tell my kids that by dressing fashionable yet tznius they really make a huge impression in the secular world. Almost every shabbos I get compliments how great my teenage girls look. They are super trendy but very aidel and tznius. I think it really boils down to aidelkeit! I really believe that girls… Read more »

This is a exhaustive topic
April 29, 2013 10:02 am

to#199
Don’t assume know for sure. You shouldn’t judge others simply by your preconceptions and judgment based on their appearance.

To#30
April 29, 2013 1:09 am

How do you know that you are totally tznius? Because you think so?

to those who think "how i dress in public is my own buisness"
April 28, 2013 11:56 pm

The Rebbe often felt it necessary to point out how tznius affects Hastens protection

And when chas veshalom there were untimely tragedies in our midst, the Rebbe often linked it to Tznius as critical to attracting and maintaining Hashem’s protection.

Preventing untimely tragediesbwas solo important to the Rebbe that he did not hesitate to tell it to us as it is, that a weakness in tznius RL endangers the lives and well being of ones family and community, literally!

The Rebbe knows his stuff, we can and must trust him on this, for everyone’s sake!!!

"im untznius but im a good person" ...possible???!
April 28, 2013 11:38 pm

If violating the laws of tznius = bringing harm to ones family and neighbourhood, then you cannot continue to claim to be a “considerate” person when chazal specifically single out tznius as the top cause of looking Harsher’s protection.

It makes more sense t8 assume that she is suffering from low self esteem than to assume that she is selfishly indifferent and willing to bring harm to those around her.

to #196
April 28, 2013 9:08 pm

If you’re a girl why are offering men tefillin, and if you’re a bochur why are you offering girls candles…you seem a bit confused about the way mivtzoim works.
If you are examining people’s looks you might need to ask your mashpia if you should be doing mivtzoim altogether.

to #5
April 28, 2013 8:40 pm

thank you for clarifying the source of #1’s semantec-related misunderstanding

she looked....
April 28, 2013 4:10 pm

I once was on mivtziom and I was asking men if they wanted to put tefilin and woman for shabbos candels and a girl went past very modern looking I asked her if she was jewish, her face turned red, I was told that she was chabad… The way she looked no-one would ever dream she was jewish…..

Lubavitchers at forefront
April 28, 2013 1:52 pm

Because Lubavitchers are in the spotlight due to their important roles in the Jewish world they are looked upon as role models. Very often the Lubavitcher shluchim and their families are the only frum people the people in their communities know, they have an obligation to be extremely strict in their adherence to Halacha. Period. The way they behave, the way they dress is scrutinized by the world. Allowing blurring of basic, fundamental Halacha is dangerous. Since one never knows which girls will be sent on shlichus it is crucial that ALL the girls at the Chabad schools are taught… Read more »

gd i love you!
April 28, 2013 8:01 am

thanks for putting my thoughts into words!

I loved it
April 28, 2013 2:19 am

Thank you so much for speaking out. I am preparing my daughter for her bat mitzvah and i was thinking, how could i teach her the beauty of Tzniut? And you said it well and from a fresh, young perspective. Halacha is halacha, chumrot are chumrot and the fact you adopt some extra chumrot doesn’t make you holier. It just makes your mitzvah more meaningful, hopefully for you. ThAnk you so much for facilitate me the study of this beautiful and overrated topic of tzniut with my soon bat mitzvah girl. Yasher Koach!

The more tznius the better.
April 28, 2013 2:17 am

Even to the point of a girl finding ways to not go out in the street whenever possible. Tznius begins inside, the outside is a protection of inner tznius. How can someone have inner tznius (even while having outer tznius) when they are trampling their inner tznius as much as some are trampling their outer tznius? Not speaking about others outside of their presence is tznius. Speaking in a gentle tone is tznius. Avoiding watching or listening to what has a questionable tone is tznius. Respecting the decorum of a shul is tznius. Having awe standing before Hashem is tznius.… Read more »

"those better than you are fanatic, while those worse are sinners"
April 27, 2013 10:11 pm

is what this author personifies. She believes that her level of tznius is ideal- while those more- or less have issues. we need to ADMIRE those that are more tznius than us, and try to help those that are less sensitive. the author fails to realize that it could be against halacha to follow the goyims fashion-it actually says that it is ossur too. so if someone is not buying glasses that are too fashionable- kol hakovod to her, although me and you may not yet be at that level. there is a slight line of immaturity and arrogance throughout… Read more »

It's ok
April 26, 2013 6:52 pm

I’m a married mother of 4 and I dress ok in the sense that my shirts come to my elbow but not over my elbow and my necklines are mostly appropriate my skirt length might be just on my knee and not quite covering it, I just wanted to say that I don’t dress like this because I have emotional problems, I just like how it looks better, I am not flaunting myself or. Trying to be rude or make u look at me, it’s just me. I’m not showing too much or wearing mini skirts its just about right… Read more »

Logic Behind Rebbe's "Beis Yaacov" standard?
April 26, 2013 5:18 pm

Why did the Rebbe say in various occasions that schools follow Beis Yacov tznius standards and did not want to establish independent Chabad standards (beyond just the Sheitel and completely covering the knee even when sitting)? I think that the reason is similar to what bothers the author: Chabad Rabbis and women were always involved in “bigger” issues than establishing tznius standards (colors, cuts, designs etc), there wasn’t so much talk about tznius, it was just observed. But since it is nevertheless important to establish standards, the Rebbe relied on the experts, in this field, and they are the Mechanchos… Read more »

Source for the Beis Yaacov Standard
April 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Some of the comments were asking when the Rebbe said that Beis Yaacov tznius standards should be followed. Mrs. Sima Ralbag, the former dean of Beis Chanah-Chabad girls school in Jerusalem, has been quoted saying that the Rebbe told her in Yechidus that the tznius standard in Chabad schools should be not less than Beis Yaacov standards. But I have heard of multiple times that the Rebbe mentioned Beis Yaacov as a standard for girls’ tznius, See the following link Rebbe’s letter to Rabbi Garelik of Kfar Chabad rebuking the regection of the Kfar Chabad women to Bnei Brak Beis… Read more »

to #172
April 26, 2013 12:07 pm

see comment 102

If you really want to know, call them.

to#67
April 26, 2013 10:26 am

I want to volunteer, where do I sign up.

some of these comments
April 26, 2013 8:55 am

just don’t get it that people are not really craving attention and don’t care what you think, just live and let live.

THE COMBATITIVE APPROACH TO TZNIUS!
April 26, 2013 8:19 am

jUST DRESS LIKE AN ARAB AND ALL YOUR PROBLEMS WILL BE SOLVED. HA!

Yes and no
April 26, 2013 12:50 am

It’s true that people miss the spirit of Tznius, and many of the technicalities come naturally with a proper appreciation of what Tznius means. However, from the tone of this very article, it’s apparent that the author did not pick up on the nuances of Tznius, and, when defining it, is merely parroting what she has heard too many times to count from her parents and educators. So what’s worse: living with an “open mind” and a corrupt version of Tznius, or having a bit of humility and assuming that the rules provided by Halacha are the most reliable guidlines… Read more »

I have a friend who is a very modern guy, on the dating scene, who insists on a dating ONLY tznius girls
April 25, 2013 11:39 pm

The reason is, maturity and emotional health!

He said that when a frum girl dresses untznius, it’s always a red flag for underlying unreaolved emotional issues!

Unfortunately he’s right, a mature well adjusted girl need not flaunt her skin just to feel of some value

#131
April 25, 2013 11:33 pm

right on the button.

to #169
April 25, 2013 11:31 pm

from how your comment was composed, I gather that you dress like satmar. THAT IS NOT THE GOAL OF CHABAD CHASIDIM. read #130; perhaps that will get your identity straight. Good job, #130. keep up the good work.

Self-esteem = Tznius
April 25, 2013 11:31 pm

Even in the secular world this is a well established fact, that the better the self esteem, the the more self respecting and reserved they are with their body’s exposure on the street.

The difference is that what Goyim consider to be revealing has always been on a lower standard than Jewish women
Yet the principle is the same, the more I respect myself the less I’m tempted to compensate by “attracting” attention on the street.

174 &176 Finally, an analyses which makes allot of sense!
April 25, 2013 11:19 pm

I work with many young women in Crown Heights and there does seem to be allot of truth to your observation, that the real underlying crises here here is Emotional and Psychological well being. The root behind most if not all of the tznius problem is Psychological, a healthy well adjusted women, with a solid self esteem, is not going to resort to violating Halacha for some desperate attention. Especially since our community knows the Dangers lack of tznius brings R”L Only someone very blinded by their issues would jeopardize their family’s well being and that of their family by… Read more »

Very sensible comment 157
April 25, 2013 11:05 pm

Lets use a tznius tone in discussing this vital topic

We need to find creative ways to make our daughters feel innately substantively valuable and help them find ways to make their lives productive and meaningful enough so that they naturally don’t feel a inner void or lacking
This will surely help many who crave that kind of shallow attention

160 said it very well
April 25, 2013 11:00 pm

Ty

If you feel good about yourself and your relationships at home, then your less desperate for attention of the wrong sort

If one feels a deep sense of inner value and pride to be Jewish they will struggle less with the need to feel superficially attractive in the wrong ways.

to everybody who commented on bais yaakov
April 25, 2013 10:40 pm

good for them. It wasn’t always like this, but chbad is not the top mehudar anymore. It is bais yaakov that has the highest standard in tznius now. we must look up to them!

tznius and emotional well being
April 25, 2013 10:24 pm

Dressing provocatively is sometimes indicative of underlying emotional issues. (Abuse, absent father…) –ask any secular or religious psychologist. Apply that extreme example to the problem of Tzniut in our neighborhood. What is it about Tzniut that makes it such a challenge to girls/women versus shabbos, kashrus etc… Once you find your answer, you’ll come up with a good antidote. After all, what is the big deal to wear a loose skirt and reasonable length skirt? (all within fashion..) It’s not about the heat because you’ll find girls wearing untzius clothing in the winter. What is a girl’s motivation when not… Read more »

spot on!!
April 25, 2013 10:22 pm

spot on!! love everything you wrote. you have a chassidishe “baindel” which is what makes you able to understand this complex issue with so much clarity. You are well balanced in your thoughts and approach to tznius. your points are great. i dont think many people will understand the finer points of your message, but i’ll say it again – you are spot on!!

need source
April 25, 2013 8:27 pm

Can someone pls give the source of where and when the Rebbe stated that about Bais Yaakov? I believe it but just need source.Thanks guys.

Take a look in the mirror
April 25, 2013 7:37 pm

It’s comments like most of these that made me so afraid as a non-frum jew to even enter a synagogue and pushed me further away from yiddishkeit. Growing up I always detested going to services, etc for fear of being judged by the “religious people” based on the way I was dressed, didn’t know how to daven, etc. B”h I one day met wonderful people, that were modest not only in their dress but also in their SPEECH, who welcomed me no matter what I looked like or how I dressed, into their family and into their homes. I can… Read more »

kaminetzky
April 25, 2013 7:25 pm

where does it say that tznius is about a woman being noticeable in the streets?

NAIL POLISH
April 25, 2013 7:11 pm

WEARING MAROON NAIL POLISH IS NOT OK!

WEARING SHAITELS BELOW THE SHOULDER IS PRITZUS!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to #163
April 25, 2013 6:14 pm

don’t be a fool! are you perfect jew?! do you so everything properly according to Halacha. No need to answer because we both know what you’re going to say. So instead of being condescending understand that we all have our issues and no two people are the same. Just because the length of one’s skirt is not up to your standard does not make them any less jewish than you or me.

comment
April 25, 2013 6:06 pm

when i walk down the street of kingston avenue, it is SHOCKING and DISTURBING to me the way some women and girls are dressed. Before you get dressed every morning, think what the Rebbe would want. Would he approve of that super tight mini skirt you’re wearing? What about that shirt with the really low neckline? Think before you wear…

to #123
April 25, 2013 5:59 pm

The Rebbe did not say that the Rebbetzins are our guide. He said Beis Yaakov is our guide.

What does the Rebbe want?
April 25, 2013 4:37 pm

It is well know that the Rebbe had said in public that a Jewish girl should dress like a “Bais Yaakov Maidel”. When walking on Kingston Avenue you can count on one hand how many girls fit this description. As a mother of Chassidishe sons I have found it very difficult to find a girl who is dressed appropriately for a Chassidish Lubavitcher bochur. It is extremely frustrating! I don’t want to lower our standards. I often get comments from shadchanim “get off your high Horse” or “face reality” etc. My reality is that I would like a girl who… Read more »

nail polish
April 25, 2013 4:13 pm

I’m sorry, but i dont find a problem with nail polish. How is it not Tznius?

when i see girls walking down kingston I feel like I have been transported to another version of Judaism
April 25, 2013 3:20 pm

Then I suddenly realize that it is not Judaism at all.

Attn. #118
April 25, 2013 3:00 pm

I am so proud of you. you are doing whats right.
And let me reiterate, tznius is about not attracting attention. And author, if you dont see how marroon nailpolish is attracting, then i pity you. any dark color nail polish is attractive. just ask a man.

To 156
April 25, 2013 1:20 pm

I curse you that your daughter should be the most chassidish girl in Lubavitch. You really need to grow up, and learn from your daughter – who appears to be more mature than you.

to 146
April 25, 2013 1:03 pm

That is not very true. Lifnei eiver is a separate detail in tznius. The proof is all the halachos that apply when nobody else is around, and that men also have obligations of tznius. It’s about realizing your value as a bas melech. That you are dignified, holy, and that you don’t exist for the pleasure of others.

my opionion
April 25, 2013 12:40 pm

It’s extremely hard for men to not look at women dressed in tzenios garb,but fitted to the body so u can see every crease.so its not about the actually coverings but its about what kind of atention are u seeking.do u want people to focos on your body or better yet you.

151, your right, no one should be judgmental, perhaps re-read your post and realize that when you accuse others of something (on some level) its a miror
April 25, 2013 12:36 pm

i live in crown heights and i try and focus on that which is beautiful and positive here, please don’t knock an entire community, anywhere

just as tznius s G-d's will, so to is Ahavas Yisroel, and not getting angry at another, even if their view point or understanding is misguided.
April 25, 2013 12:29 pm

to all those who feel passionately about whats at steak, “i get it” tznius does have a major real world impact on protection against tragedies in our “camp” machaneh. to all those who are defensive about their own tznius, please dont vilify or name call those who are very concerned about the lack of adherance to this important value, remeer on all sides of the discussion, please maintain a dignified tone, and lets not forget what g-d wants of us most, to be B’achdus and not judge the other as bad, even if their actions ch”v are destructive, rather show… Read more »

nuts
April 25, 2013 12:12 pm

Then u have the opposite. My daughter will layer clothes esp white blouses because Heaven help us if something like a strap can be spotted.All (even small)slits must be sewn well.Wll there is something called extreme. The problem is she and others really think everyone is looking at them and inspecting them.They are NOT.Im happy to be much more chilled out.I don’t know how she got nuts but she did.

to comment #1
April 25, 2013 12:05 pm

Well Said!

Lets hear the other side?
April 25, 2013 11:51 am

Seems like from most of the comments that most of the women writing are more or less tznius. I want to hear justification from those women who have such a low self-asteem, they find extreem measures to have people look their direction.
(Maybe they don’t read col only tmz where they learn how to dress..)

now i get it
April 25, 2013 11:48 am

ohhhh so we are supposed to act like princesses and regal???Maybe that is why so many act like “b”es and snot nosed conceited royals. And pls do not deny you act oh so superior to those of BT backgrounds while the Geshe elite marry similar royals.This is about tznius too? I am not bitter btw.I’m laughing at the hypocricy and double standards. If youlook a little deeper at the princess portrayal, you will also find those with poor self esteem because the only way they feel good about themselves and their 100% tznius selves is to look down on others… Read more »

i like 122!!
April 25, 2013 11:12 am

practical solution! ty

angry
April 25, 2013 10:57 am

since when does the color of nail polish matter? green, maroon, red, pink! the rebbe constantly stressed how women should look beautiful! and why are men even commenting on this article, it does not concern them at all! and for all the people who think that by criticizing others, will help the problem, focus on your self, when u criticize no one will listen! honestly i am so happy i dont live in crown heights! what ever happened to not judging? is it my fault i look attractive and men stare, thats on them, not on me! they shouldnt be… Read more »

Thank you author
April 25, 2013 10:54 am

I read the article and the comments and I really commend you for writing this to begin with as well as standing up for yourself in the comments. Hatzlocha raba in all of your future endeavors.

to#146
April 25, 2013 9:59 am

But the Talmud, the basis for Jewish law, offers a perhaps surprising answer: It places the responsibility for controlling men’s licentious thoughts about women squarely on the men. By saying that all women must hide their bodies, they are saying that every woman is an object who can stir a man’s licentious thoughts. Thus, every woman who passes their field of vision is sized up on basis of how much of her body is covered. It shifts the responsibility of managing a man’s thoughts from himself to every woman he may or may not encounter. The Talmud tells the religious… Read more »

To #136
April 25, 2013 8:50 am

Honey,.perhaps you could define “ignorance” as YOU understand it, because I believe you chose the wrong word. FYI, tznius also includes speaking appropriately….judging by your irrational and unfounded personal anger against me, I don’t think refined speech features in your life. You must be so much fun to be with! Such eidelkeit! 😉 Have a happy & calm day.

TO#146
April 25, 2013 8:32 am

You could not be more wrong.The laws of Tznius applies to men as well, and it does not matter who is watching,because God is everywhere-Shulchon Aruch AH 2- .In fact ,there is a story of the Rebbe about this very concept, where a man sent a picture of himself in shorts to the rebbe and the rebbe spoke about it in public and was extremely angry.

it's all about the MEN
April 25, 2013 6:51 am

i havent heard anyone mention the REAL reason for tznius-lifnei iver lo sitain michshol- do not put a stumbling block before a blind person. This is often used to explain why women need to cover up-not to get righteous men excited. We’re supposed to help the men avoid impropriety by not distracting them. This is how the community is ‘protected’ from sin and scandal. Just saying. Something to think about.

2 points
April 25, 2013 1:48 am

1. very well said 2. gotta remember the concept of not following the ways /dress of the non jews and being modest. its not only about the neckline, the elbows and the kness

everybody!
April 25, 2013 1:15 am

For all those people that for some odd reason are convinced that Tznius has anything whatsoever to do with being dignified or modest or classy or whatever word you want to use, are incorrect. Those are all terms that are entirely subjective and are consistent with the time that one lives in. For example a strapless dress that hugs every curve of the body is considered classy and dignified and modest by majority of today’s society. Tznuis is a Jewish concept and as such it cannot be defined my mundane terms that as I said before are entirely subjective and… Read more »

One more thing from the Author
April 25, 2013 12:07 am

I fundamentally disagree with anyone who wrote that Tznius is in order to hide the woman away, and I’m pretty sure the Rebbe did too. Without getting into too much discussion, the Rebbe said so many times that Shlichus is a partnership. Now how is the wife meant to be an equal partner if she is always “hidden”. And for some reason I don’t think the Rebbe meant the wife should do all the cooking. Again, this subject is for another time and place. But please don’t be so offensive as to say that we cannot be out in the… Read more »

From the Author
April 25, 2013 12:03 am

Thank you for reading. I in turn read all your comments and value your suggestions and opinions, even when they differ to mine. Before I make some clarifications, I’d like to express my surprise and slight entertainment at the amount of judgements and assumptions made about myself, my family and community, based on the tiny amount of information I provided about them in the article. For the rcord – where did I say that we are involved in Chabad house shlichus, that we can’t tolerate baalei tshuva, or that I don’t go to a frum school? Yeh didn’t think so.… Read more »

on being "wrong"...19
April 24, 2013 11:59 pm

Who decides what color nail polish is too much? maroon or brown polish is subtle next to the blue and silver colors that are being worn today. A woman may dress ” modest”, following the strictest of whatever guidelines that have been instituted by leaders or whomever, and yet her behavior and what comes out of her mouth is as contrary to the very so called modesty she is supposed to be “wearing”. We should be as careful and as critical of our acts as well as our spoken words, more of our children would take seriously and in a… Read more »

Working in Boro Park
April 24, 2013 11:12 pm

Tznius is not just about covering your knees, elbow and tightness of cloth, But as important, not dressing in a way that could be provocative – extra-long sheitel, loud color cloth, and yes provocative designed tights; hence the word ‘tznius’. I recently started working in Boro Park after working in CH for most of my married life. (I only moved to CH once I got married). The women there for the most part dress tznius in the full sense of the word. It made me realize you could still be beautiful, wear designer cloth, go out with make-up, look attractive,… Read more »

to 118
April 24, 2013 10:47 pm

i was waiting for someone like you :).. why does it seem like all the bts or children of bts are always so defensive and angry??? As a child of a baal teshuvah, i can confidently say that i am very proud. –These comments are nothing short of senseless hate that comes from a lack of backround.. and not the geshe type…
ironic, aint it??

Agreed
April 24, 2013 10:18 pm

agreed fully.

Also, when a woman dresses untzniusdik, it just shows that the woman has a low self esteem. Since she is dressing just for the sake of approval of the outside world, and if the style changes, she will change too. The person is simply unstable.
Therefore, I greatly congratulate the tzniusdik women of today. You are truly the nashim Tzidkanyos.

to #67
April 24, 2013 10:11 pm

lol

no 115
April 24, 2013 10:09 pm

Hold a candle to THEIR standards? where do you come from? “Your ignorance is apalling/ How did we end up here with people like you????

to #8
April 24, 2013 10:07 pm

i’ve got one question: why the heck were you up at 2 AM?

what about
April 24, 2013 10:06 pm

what about this whole fad of dressing little boys in skin tight jeans? It’s NOT cute- I bet your little ones are super uncomfortable, little boys already looks like little girls with pre upshernish hair and the skinny jeans just add to the look. I cant wait till this fad has past and the little ones can breathe easy again and can walk, play and run freely like they should be able to.

Tznius for men
April 24, 2013 10:00 pm

For your information, men also have Halachos of Tznius.

Question from a non-Lubavitcher
April 24, 2013 9:47 pm

Although I am not a Lubavitcher, I truly admire the Rebbe, zt’l and his shluchim. Also, I try to instill in my daughter the beauty of Chabad Chassidus. But how do I answer her when she asks why Lubavitch women and girls who live in our community dress so untznius?

a final word
April 24, 2013 9:42 pm

1) in my house my mother never even thought of wearing maroon nail polish, so to me your mother might be considered not tznius enough. 2) in another home they wore flashy color nail polish, they would consider your mother a saint. 3) lets no man or woman judge another, or compare themselves to satmar or any other group of kind heart’ed people, let us look at our selves and work on what it would take for us to return to where we came from. a neighborhood, full of self respect, woman that dressed with glamour no underwear showing throu… Read more »

To #1
April 24, 2013 9:34 pm

sorry to break the news to you, but you’ve got it all wrong. 1) not trimming a beard is not an extreme, it’s halacha. 2) a shaitel is greatly encouraged by the rebbe, so if you are disagreeing as a chabad jew, then you’ve got to wear a shaitel. 3) classy does not necessarily have to mean ‘stylish’. It could mean eidelkeit, but presentable. It means, for example, wearing a soft yellow and white striped shirt with a below-the-knee maroon pencil skirt. It does NOT have to mean wearing a tank top and shorts. 4) it also says in pirkei… Read more »

Dear Number 117...
April 24, 2013 9:29 pm

What I’m delicately suggesting, is that tznius is a woman’s protection. It imparts total confidence that her appearance would never distract anyone in a way that is remotely inappropriate or too personal. It frees her up to communicate and achieve her goals in the wider world without self consciousness. Rather than needing police to enforce it as a burdensome set of rules, tznius comes with its own rewards.

embarrassed
April 24, 2013 9:25 pm

i am a Shlucha who is very proud to be Tznius. I know that there are people who are always looking at me, recognizing who i am, and judging me and i try to make a KIDDUSH LUBAVITCH. unfortunately every time i got to Crown Hights i feel more embarrassed. THIS IS HOW WE DRESS??? IS THIS WHAT THE REBBE WANTS? HOW CAN SOMEONE FIND SUCH HETEROS AND LIVE WITH THE GUILT??? it is embarrassing to walk down Kingston and see uncovered legs, necks and arms. I could not believe what i saw some girls doing and what i heard… Read more »

To #67
April 24, 2013 9:25 pm

Great comment!! I just laughed out loud for like 10 minutes. Best comment I’ve ever read on collive….

Greenfeld
April 24, 2013 9:23 pm

You seem put out by those girls who are going to “Extremes”. Do they make you feel uncomfortable, because they’re actually folloiwng halacha and you’re not? To your friend who was concerned about the glasses that “stand out too much” – kol hakavod! If your friends following halacha makes you feel uncomfortable, deal with it. Lubavitch lack of tznius is making them uncomfortable and they’re making sure they do the right thing. Let them do this. Until they start giving you mussar (what? shock horror, we’re Lubavitchers, mussar is NOT PART OF OUR HASHKOFAH!) for what they perceive as YOUR… Read more »

Tznius acts, tznius dress.
April 24, 2013 8:28 pm

Being involved in the world means doing mizvahs and spreading Yiddishkeit — not calling attention to oneself. Being tznius means, in part, to look nice,even in style, but not to call attention to oneself. Our dress and our acts reflect our neshamas.

dressing attractively
April 24, 2013 8:25 pm

Dressing to attract RESPECT is tznius. Dressing to attract ATTENTION is r”l the opposite. Just look at yourself in a full-length mirror, from all angles, and honestly decide whether you will attract RESPECT or ATTENTION, then you will know whether you are dressed and made up appropriately.

This applies also to the topic of shoes, which someone raised earlier — be honest, do stiletto heels attract RESPECT or ATTENTION? How about with lots of straps and buckles going part way up the legs? In your heart you know the answer.

The Rebbeztin Chaya Mushka A"H
April 24, 2013 8:20 pm

The Rebbeztin Chaya Mushka A”H is our guide , we girls in CH dress the way she and her sisters dressed in our age , what was good for the Rebbe Rayatz N’E then, is good for us now

113
April 24, 2013 7:23 pm

At least men and fathers can do something very effective,
Husbands: sholom bayis really helps! A women who feels loved and cherished at home is far less desperate for attention on the street
Her self esteem tank is full to the brim and she ccarries herself with a sense of royalty and inner value.

Fathers: Spend more quality time getting to know and love your daughters, the more attention and love she gets at home, the less needy she’ll be for throng kind of attention on the street.

Tzniuns
April 24, 2013 7:09 pm

The scenario with your friend and her glasses, she was right you shouldn’t were something that will make you stand out and flashy rather be more modest about yourself and not try to draw so much attention

JUST ASK YOURSELF
April 24, 2013 7:06 pm

Would you feel comfortable walking past the Rebbe?

Everyone else can geyin in di erd.

i couldnt agree more
April 24, 2013 6:50 pm

i totally agree with what you are saying, and i feel the same way. so many girls (maybe boys too) walk around looking at others and judging their clothes… and you know what tznius means modest and that isnt being modest in their actions towards other people. so just to everyone, lets lay the ground rules and the more stricter thing that can be decided by family/community/school or personally.
Moshiach now!

wow
April 24, 2013 6:40 pm

I actually read all the comments, (well, almost) and one thing struck me, YOU HAVE NEVER MET A REAL BAALAS TESHUVA!! So, since I have not only met a baalas teshuva, but was raised by one, I will enlighten you. My mother met the Shluchim in her city when she was 19 and the thing that impressed her the most was the Shlucha. She dressed like a princess, regal, modest, perfect! In the age of miniskirts, this was beyond amazing! Today, my mother is proudly a Frum woman, married to a Frum man and has Frum children! I am a… Read more »

to#113
April 24, 2013 6:39 pm

So according to you if someone is a little off with tznuis they lack confidence and dignity. Is regulation all we know?

Maybe we need a tznuis police over here.

To14
April 24, 2013 6:38 pm

As if u went through the entire Shulchon Aruch to know what it does or doesn’t say…

to #100
April 24, 2013 6:38 pm

You are mixing apples and oranges. Nothing to do with cutting beards or hechsherim. We are talking Tznius and let’s face it, we can’t hold a candle to their standards. I’m not talking about fashion or style, I’m talking about modesty.

So sorry you feel nauseous…can I send you some TUMS?

113 and 93
April 24, 2013 6:18 pm

113 follow the link in 112
93 what happened lag ba’omer 5733?

swimming upstream...
April 24, 2013 6:08 pm

I’m a woman who just loves dressing according to the law and the spirit of tznius. It’s empowering to know that when I have something to say, I can speak to anyone with confidence, as my look is both appropriate and dignified. What I can’t figure out is how to impart the joy of this mitzvah to the young. Any ideas folks?

To #86 & #90
April 24, 2013 5:58 pm
Nu?
April 24, 2013 5:35 pm

I am not a “girl” age already and I am a age of teenager baal tshuva. let me tell you something, my daughter! I went through two different types of life and I am very proud to be a baal tshuva. I was wearing pants and of course no sheitel plus being a mother of three girls age 15, 10 and 7 when I decided that my life is very very wrong. It was BH just a moment when i opened my closet and all my clothing went to a garbige bag. Besides it we already started keeping some mitzvos… Read more »

ahhhh
April 24, 2013 5:32 pm

stop alreadyyyy!!! i rlly like the whole article!! dont waste your time !!

65!!
April 24, 2013 5:12 pm

SO true!!

You are on the right and wrong track!
April 24, 2013 4:49 pm

I agreed with you to an extent… Tznius is a huge problem, but that is why people are ranting about (as you call it) extra chumros. There is halacha guidlines, and there is something called looking refined; looking like your special, that you are important, not your hundred dollar shirt (from nordstrom covers only half the top of you). It used to be that the requirements of a womans attire for a job interview (non jews too)were a suit with a skirts and the skirtand sleeves had to be a certain length and the neck was covered above, a certain… Read more »

Some clarification
April 24, 2013 4:44 pm

You do bring up some valid points, but i want to correct you on 2 issues. Firstly, you mention that in the old days, tznius wasn’t mentioned, yet everyone knew how to dress. You are correct with that assessment, but it seem like you failed to realize that since we are living in 2013, with morality at an all-time low, us jews have unfortunately been affected as well, and therefore we do need guidelines to help keep us in tow. I speak as a chassidish girl from boro park, who values the mitzvah of tznius greatly, yet i cant imagine… Read more »

okay
April 24, 2013 4:41 pm

the other “extra” things isn’t like adding more rules, its a matter of eidelkeit.

to the author, whoever you are
April 24, 2013 4:38 pm

i myself am a teenage shlucha and i agree with you 100% – i wish i knew who you are, you’re head is screwed on straight, which is REALLY hard to find!!! thanks for putting your thoughts out there, and please dont read the hundreds of comments of criticism! have a great day 🙂

#100
April 24, 2013 3:42 pm

You are narrow minded and missed the point

to#91
April 24, 2013 3:30 pm

I agree with you. Some people who dress tznuis, seem to lack the modest behavior.

To#67
I see what you did there. lol

The Rebbe said:
April 24, 2013 3:18 pm

The guidelines for our “look” in Lubavitch is … Beis Yaakov. So look in the mirror or look at your wife or daughter and think: Does she look indistinguishable from a Beis Yaakov girl? If so, great! That’s what the Rebbe wants.

Source: Mrs. Sternberg and Mrs. Sarah Green, principal of Beis Rivka in Kfar Chabad for years. R’ Chadakov told her to see what Beis Yaakov was doing, and do what they did.

Great article!
April 24, 2013 3:08 pm

Wow thank you for that! I feel as though you took some words right out of my mouth! Thank you!
I especially was touched by what you wrote ” She told me that when she was my age, growing up as a Lubavitcher girl, tznius was never even spoken about, you just understood it.”

to no. 24
April 24, 2013 3:07 pm

A satmar colleague told u that u look nice. That is who you are looking too for affirmation? The ones that cut the beard of one of our own? The ones that rabonim said we not eat of their hechsher>> Not to speak of what they did to the Rebbes picture. I guess the Arab with the burke also thinks you look nice. I feel nauseous

mother
April 24, 2013 2:51 pm

I often find when I see someone untznius to remember the saying of the B’al Shem Tov that when we see something in others it is a reflection of ourselves, unless we are in the power to improve the situation. So, I look to myself. Is there a loose hair out? Did my stocking rip? Usually, I find that there is something Hashem is showing me in myself that needs improvement when I see something untznius in the other person.

dilema
April 24, 2013 2:43 pm

There is dilema to how to deal with this issue. Kiruv or richuk. We try to be mekarev and influence these people with love and friendship hopping they should turn around and come back. On the other hand the influence and impact this has on others is growing tremendously and out of hand and many kids are l”o being dragged and lost. In other places they don’t find themselves confortable so they leave to places where they can find the same type of people this is why you don’t see there this problem like we see it here. In CH… Read more »

PLEASE READ
April 24, 2013 2:07 pm

Wear skirts 3 inches below the knee, necklines for your color bone, stockings and shaitel. Long shaitels are fine. Flashy colors and galsses are NOT fine. Ur a princess look befitting one. Hot pink nail polish on ur toes IS NOT princess like.

yaakov shallman
April 24, 2013 2:05 pm

Great article! well written and great message. don’t be anonymous – be proud in your view. it’s great.

to no. 85 "what does torah say"
April 24, 2013 2:02 pm

This is the point.. You are asking our girls to go beyond what Torah says. You are asking them to follow the dress of other groups WHy? Never been that wa;y and your method is turning a generation of girls to hate tznius because you are brainwashing them into ideas that if they dont dress like Boro Park they are not tznius… When will you realize that you are destroying everything?

100%
April 24, 2013 1:57 pm

Great article. i agree with everything you wrote. I am 59 years old an grew up in CH..Went to BR all my life. I am horrified how tznius police are trying to turn us into Boro Park and Williamsburg.

Some good points but....
April 24, 2013 1:42 pm

First of all: ” and I’m not a baalas tshuva of any sort”.. Bad bad choice of words. I keep on reading about this “in chabad we were always mekarev people and not bashful”. Yes when we’re dealing with an individuals struggles. But when dealing with communal affairs or something that effects the klal, how many times do we see the rebbe scream at farbrengens about these things!? The Rebbe said it the way it is and demanded improvement. Tznious is clearly not just a personal issue it effects the atmosphere in a scary way. Lets not kid ourselves in… Read more »

the problem is......
April 24, 2013 1:30 pm

as #66 says, all the tznius talk, is not coming from the true bottom of the heart, there are major side reasons, not to go inot them. because if the people really meant it, it definitely would of helped, but being the once speaking about it, and really think that their doing their best, really, realy dont care!!!! and they them selves are NOT TZNIUS, just in public they come and scream at others, and this is our problem with all machlokes that we have, people are screaming “REBBE” “HASHEM” “TORAH” CHASIDISH” “KAVUD RABONIM” “TZINIUS” all of these people screaming… Read more »

first of all
April 24, 2013 1:23 pm

well,i’ve had the pleasure or i should say the mispleasure of watching the most tznius women of a chassidishe family walk into shul oh so properly dress and not a single one can say gut yom tov to anyone and if they do,it;s as if they were held hostage to do so.It was quite humorous.They also make a statement about their”holiness” and purity and barely nod at anyone who doesn’t meet their “hi standards”.I’ll take the less tznius folk because at least they show some “modesty” and “humility”.Today’s girls do not want to look like their grandmas nor frumpy frum… Read more »

to #86
April 24, 2013 1:10 pm

you accidentally included (the first one) as part of your link so it doesn’t work. the link is at this site http://11213.org/top-15-audio-downloads/ and then make sure to listen to the first one. I highly recommend it too, It’s amazing!!!

#65 hit the nail on the head
April 24, 2013 1:09 pm

People who don’t go on shlichus often seem to lack a purpose and meaning in their lives. A lot of the tznius issue will take care of itself if people focus their lives on making a real, meaningful contribution to the neighborhood, community, city, or world.

tznius brings brachos
April 24, 2013 12:58 pm

If people o only knew the many brachos genius brings ppl would be solo much more careful

Mr. Silberstein.
April 24, 2013 12:53 pm

“בנות ישראל נאות הן, אלא שהעניות מנוולתן, ואין עני אלא בדעת”

Hear here
April 24, 2013 12:49 pm

This changed the relationship between my oldest daughter and I. Everyone should hear here.
http://11213.org/top-15-audio-downloads/
(The first one)

What torah has to say??
April 24, 2013 12:48 pm

I am a michanechet in a twelfth grade class. I really apprecieated your sharing how you feel and your confusion as to what should be the right approach to tznius. Today with the exposure to the outside world we are all part of this conflict. I think that the fact that you are searching or hurt by certain attitudes around you is the first step in understanding yourself as a person and as a chayelet in the army of Hashem!! True, it would seem scary to think that people define us by the color nailpolish we wear.(I’ve never had that… Read more »

#28
April 24, 2013 12:42 pm

You write you have never heard the Rebbe talking about hemlines etc, how many sichos have you listened to? I beg you leave the Rebbe out until you check facts. I, for example, was by a sicha when the Rebbe was saying that if a lady thinks that the extra 10 cm of her uncovered arm is what makes her beautiful, than we should pity this girl. It was a message that is still with me today, tznius is something always changing even in your own closet, a skirt could be fine one day and a few week later and… Read more »

#41,52,56,66,78
April 24, 2013 12:40 pm

I agree with.

To#75
That was rude.

confused
April 24, 2013 12:32 pm

why is it that all the “black hat” very frum men shave and they follow holocha and yet u brand them as not keeping halacha???they are not modern.Maybe not chassidic but why are u making this a halacha issue?I really want to know about this.

Boruch Nissim Hoffinger HaKohaine... BS"D
April 24, 2013 12:31 pm

Simple question:
Who is responsible for the proud existence of Crown Heights?
‘The Rebbe, MH”M’
Why don’t we honor his wishes?
Do we want others to honor our wishes…our children?
So, if a mother, who doesn’t dress according to ‘Halachic’ standards sees her children misbehaving, does she have a ‘pitchon pe’?

to#67
April 24, 2013 12:20 pm

Good thing you are not serious.

i agree with 26, 27 , 29,
April 24, 2013 12:20 pm

Ty and keep posting

Machshiva , Dibur and than Masseh!!!
April 24, 2013 12:16 pm

i must say that there is alot more to tznius than just the way one dresses, and that starts with machshovah, are your minds clean, with clean thoughts, are your minds focused on your own life and marriage, not looking around at others, and what they are doing, and how good of time they are having. etc. etc. and than comes “debur” words, what are your words and discussions, ahat are you busy talking about with your freinds? what topics? be honest with yourself!!!! whats your discussins, and what is your mind full of? is there any torah up there??… Read more »

boro park, beis yaakov and tznius
April 24, 2013 12:13 pm

Stop bashing how they dress in boro park. The Rebbe told the seminary in Kfar Chabad that they should use the tzniyus guidelines at beis yaakov for their seminary.

blue hair
April 24, 2013 12:06 pm

I met a lady this summer who had blue streaks in her sheitel. I thought it looked really neat. It was done tastefully. Not overdone. She was dressed in a very tznius way and was not a loud person. She did not draw attention to herself, although those blue streaks did. Would she be considered tznius? I would say so. She’s just pushing the limits. It’s not something I would do or let my kids do. But what about boys who wear crazy socks? Where do they fall in the scheme of things?

to 39
April 24, 2013 12:04 pm

Take your modern orthodox spirit elsewhere as well

Somthing that needs invetigation.
April 24, 2013 12:00 pm

The rummer is, the whole Tznius issue started, when the CH schools banned long skirts.Based on that,I would say the author is correct ,when you go to far to one extreme,it can backfire.
Personally, I suggest,the schools throw out the hideous uniforms,so the girls can be educated on how to where normal,tznius closing.But it would seem, conformity is more important to the elite than tznius.

To #2
April 24, 2013 11:56 am

Your first line highlights the problems,,,,
what does we have 1 REBBE even mean???
aren’t their 7 rebbes of chabad? As Jews haven’t we always said 1 G-D….
This my friend is the root of the problems with the youth today.. becuase they have been sumished – mixed up with all this 1 REBBE talk, and silently they dont belive in this 1 REBBE thing, they throw everything else out…
Leave the youth alone,,, were living in a time when they have to figure it all out by themselves,, and they will,,,..

let's bring some actual sources
April 24, 2013 11:43 am
The horrors
April 24, 2013 11:42 am

Someone cares more about looking tznius than looking fashionable. How awful! How not Chabad!

I’m sorry but I can’t get past people defining what is or is not “the Chabad way” based on some superficial criteria. Chabad means worldly? Oh?

And the inconsistency of complaining about people being “in your face” and not accepting of other people’s clothing choices, while mocking those who CHOOSE not to wear clothing that they feel is too flashy. So it’s okay if you choose to wear trendier clothes, but not okay if someone else chooses to dress more low-key? Who’s dictating to whom?

the 66th coment;)
April 24, 2013 11:37 am

I’m sorry but your article means nothing to me after the way you label and stereotype each group(satmar, bt…)I’m sure you didn’t write that with that intent to patronize but subconsciously it just shows what type of family and person you are.. in your own words “higher than thou”attitude..

please
April 24, 2013 11:34 am

for the sake of this discussion can someone who knows, please post some actual quotes with sources from the shulchan aruch? or at least post a link to someone who has already done this. I’ve found in my experience, people LOVE to quote Torah/Shulchan Aruch/The Rebbe without every having actually opened up a sefer. Unless we get more people like #55,who actually quoted a source, this whole discussion is based on rumors and second-hand halacha. thanks!

hey
April 24, 2013 11:31 am

9 and 24 and 65-awesome.
instead of focusing on how frum enough you are, and how nobody should belittle you for disregarding halacha-since you feel frum, how about instead talk about how people are too quick to judge or something meaninful?

...I volunteer...
April 24, 2013 11:23 am

…as a young bochur who has studied very well the halachos of tznius to be the head of a new tznius police force in CH.

I have a team of willing guys with sharp eyes ready to help. We need a salary of 60k minimum with benefits and defined pension plan, dark grey uniforms, turbans and 5 foot bamboo canes (to keep transgressors in order), and we’re set to go…

i love this!!
April 24, 2013 11:21 am

i must say that when people would speak true “devorim hayotzim min halev” than it would really be “devorim hanichnosim el halev”, the problem we have is that the people who scream tzinus, are only doing so out of jealousy, they them self hardley beleive in g-d, never show up to shull, they rather stay home sleep and read evrey shtus magazine thats on the market, but than they get an opportunity to speak aboiut tznius there they are, screaming and screaming and adding more to the list, when who knows if theses people even keep proper kashrus at home!!!!… Read more »

The Crown Heights Universe
April 24, 2013 11:02 am

CH is really its own universe. Take a step outside and things look really different. Everything gets analyzed under a microscope because you live in a fishbowl. Get out of CH, see the rest of the normal world, where young boys don’t wear bespoke suits to shul, girls don’t dress like european runway models and get over yourselves. The problem isn’t extremes in how we dress. The problem is a lack of anything else meaningful to fill yourself with. Honestly, if you were dedicated to all things chabad and truly believed in its values and mission, this wouldn’t be an… Read more »

dark nail polish
April 24, 2013 11:00 am

Nowhere in the shulchan aruch does it say you can or cannot wear dark nail polish. I am sure that if lipstick were invented today the same people would be screaming that this is not tsniusdik. The same goes for skirts above the ankle. The writer is correct. We should be picking our battles carefully otherwise rational minded girls will be totally turned off

Chava
April 24, 2013 10:54 am

everyone is correct, there is a huge Tsnius issue i never write on Collive, but this is a issue i feel is very important the simple answer is there is no quick fix, this is a universal multilevel issue, that i believe can only completely be resolved when Moshiach comes. the issue is not the “issue”… the issue is a symptom of golus which is the overall reason why we are all so confused not just as lubavitchers, but as women, as Jews, as Humans, As creations. the world has never been in such a state where a woman is… Read more »

jew
April 24, 2013 10:49 am

this morning i went outside and a jewish lady went to pick up sthing and i could see ALL now is that nice ?????Tsnius is for you to help you from all the unsafe things out there .if a Lubavitch shlach does not keep the dinim of the torah /tsnius they should not work for Lubavitch and there are a few that need to go .

Lead, Don't Preach
April 24, 2013 10:42 am

Lead by example.
Don’t Preach.

great article, thank you.

the old days
April 24, 2013 10:40 am

We didn’t have to say much, because who would walk in the Rebbe’s daled amos being inappropriately dressed? As others pointed out, the world was different then, and even TV shows were relatively modest. The Rebbe spoke directly to women about their role as akeris habayis, and all the brochos a woman could bring to her family. You were not raised in those times, so it is no longer enough to ‘absorb’ the lessons. When I was your age, eating kosher meant reading the ingredients label and if nothing outrightly traif was listed, it was okay. Times have changed, much… Read more »

Right on!
April 24, 2013 10:36 am

Chabad must be in the forefront of observance of Halacha. However, that does not mean that a young woman your age has to dress like a Bubby. Let’s be tolerant of different tastes and styles, as long as they are in the bounds of the laws of covering the body and, of course, are not too tight or sheer. I have no knowledge of any “laws” governing earrings, glasses, shoes, etc! As a Shlucha, I try to dress well because I want to be a role model for my community. If you look beautiful, people will want to be like… Read more »

80 20 Rule
April 24, 2013 10:35 am

%100 of Tznius is

80% Hashkafa – Mind Set and Body Language.
20% Halacha – Coverage and Wardrobe style

to#50
April 24, 2013 10:31 am

Indeed. Too much bickering.

extreme
April 24, 2013 10:29 am

I think we have become a bit too extreme.. Chill out peoples …try to enjoy life ..to this who go crazy saying oy vay ..oy loook at her and how she dresses ..they are miserable people…I’ll buy you a ticket to Hawaii.. Stay there for a few months with the song don’t worry be happy and maybe you will come back with a more positive accepting personality …this is all a way of life my friends …and a good way of life for girls and boys ..but nothing I mean nothing is set in stone…we try to believe what we… Read more »

"The Jewish woman should not be hidden away"
April 24, 2013 10:29 am

The Rambam disagreed. He thought women should be mostly at home and כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה

right on!
April 24, 2013 10:25 am

the author made some great points

she's right!
April 24, 2013 10:25 am

you can’t get ppl to improve their tznius by talking down to them.

inspire them to learn and live a more meaningful life.

tznius and other issues will all be fine.

i agree
April 24, 2013 10:19 am

tznius does have rules… but
your atitude is moch more powerful overall

there are some (men too!) who are so busy inspecting every girls tznius, oh… very very holy

you are sooo lost
April 24, 2013 10:18 am

While many of your ideas sound nice, the fact that you couldn’t understand what would be wrong with something “loud” shows how lost you are. Tznius means hidden. The Rebbe (as evidenced by his opinion in sheitels) wanted bnos Yisroel to look beautiful and dignified the way a bas melech would. He did NOT want people walking around wearing extremely loud unrefined clothing as that would show that contrary to the rebbe’s goal of us effecting the world, the world effected us.

guysss
April 24, 2013 10:14 am

may this be the last comment.
get back to your lives and not waste so much time arguing. everyone believe what u want to believe and do whatever you want to do. lets end it here.

The Writer Is %100 Correct
April 24, 2013 10:13 am

right on!

thank you!

my opinion
April 24, 2013 10:12 am

i think one of the reasons tznius is such an issue is because of the whole negative approach to it! If we teach people in a kind, non judgemental way, then maybe we can fix this problem! Nowadays, when tznius is spoken about, most people (at least teenage girls) roll their eyes and wont listen. Stop the negativity, and instead think about how even by keeping tznius, we CAN look put together and stylish!

Biggest Mitzvah
April 24, 2013 10:10 am

If you think about it the ONE constant “down to earth” Mitzvah we have is Tsnius, YES we have Chasiduss that helps us understand Hashem and making this world a better place for his Kidusha, but unlike men who have many other practical Mitzvios like Tifilin Learning (minyin) etc. we have JUST one!
Let us do it with love and Hiddur.

agree with the author!
April 24, 2013 10:10 am

agree with everything you said….

Good Article
April 24, 2013 9:49 am

The focus must be on each individual. Treat each person with respect and ahavas yisroel. Be an example by taking interest in people for who they are. People will be much more willing to accept your love and support. friends going shopping together can Offer to help each other find the clothes they enjoy wearing and make it work so it looks beautiful on her. Each person should feel the dignity of choosing their own clothes. Offer sales coupons that you have. Text friends about a sale. Go beyond yourselves. Hashem will help us be successful especially when he sees… Read more »

Educators
April 24, 2013 9:42 am

I agree with the author regarding a middle ground. Part of the reason many young women go to the other extreme is that too many schools seem to negatively focus on the technicalities of tznius, with reprimands and public shaming and generally spending too much time on the color of socks etc. Is it any surprise that the girls attending these schools feel the need to rebel so outrageously? Don’t even get me started on lecturing the mothers. A private school has the right to demand a dress code for parents, but don’t come over to me to ask where… Read more »

BT and Boro Park
April 24, 2013 9:36 am

I am BT, work in Boro Park. i find it funny that crown heights ffb does not like either the BTs nor the Satmar / Boro Park chassidim. is it funny, or sad?

boro park vs crown heights
April 24, 2013 9:36 am

the root of our tznius problem is that here ppl do not spend the type of money they do in boro park! designer clothes are better cut, better shaped , more substantial fabric and europian so are generally more modest. I spend a small fortune on my girls clothes for this reason. They look fashionable , expensive, and absolutely tznius just like a Jewish bas melech should do! so start spending more on clothes ( as they do in Williamsburg , boro park and Flatbush ) instead of electronics, cars and travel and we will surely get here the same… Read more »

Tznuis always a hot topic
April 24, 2013 9:30 am

To#23 I agree.

Jewish tradition teaches men and women alike that they should be modest in their dress. But modesty is not defined by, or even primarily about, how much of one’s body is covered. It is about comportment and behavior. It is about recognizing that one need not be the center of attention. It is about embodying the prophet Micah’s call for modesty: learning “to walk humbly with your G-d.”

shluchan aruch
April 24, 2013 9:22 am

shulchan aruch discused collarbones, elbows etc. when it discusses the halachos of krias shma for a man. however the halachos generally apply even if no men are present, unless the area is designated for a sport like swimming etc. – shulchan aruch also discusses the color red, and says that jews should not wear that color since it is considered unjewish, when deciding that our educators have gone too far in their instructions- wed probably have to ask them first why they teach that way, i think many of us have been or would be quite surprised to know the… Read more »

you dont know what tznius or chassidishkeit is
April 24, 2013 9:20 am

You wrote that tznius is not about hiding away but that is literally what tznius is. Being modest means trying to not draw attention to one’s self. The pasuk says “kol kvuda bas melech penima.” Maybe if your mother had been spoken to about tznius as a child she would have some inkling of what it means. Further, chassidishkeit means going beyond the leetter of the law. How dare you attack people who are mehader in a mitzvah that other people treat lightly. Take your modern orthodox hashkafos elsewhere.

oh no!
April 24, 2013 9:02 am

just as you said… overall frum look… large glasses are not aidel looking and neitehr is long dangling earings or longgggggg shaitels or….. anything like that…. you have to undesrtand… you dont have to talk about it

times changed
April 24, 2013 9:01 am

Because Of yeridas hadorot we have to talk about Tsnius and the way a girl should dress and act… I agree wit you it should be more encouraging than putting down girls that have this big issues… and to finish Mothers and older people should give example for the next generation to come… Some people don’t walk on Kingston avenue because of the fact that woman are not tsnius!! That is very painfull for Anash!! I agree with you , again, that a chabad girl should be proud to be chabad and we should see from her way of dressing… Read more »

to who it may concern
April 24, 2013 8:58 am

tznius is wearing a skirt that covers your knees not a wide belt in place of a skirt we see females in our shcunah wearing wide belts instead of skirts.perhaps a skirt was forgotten to be put on

anon
April 24, 2013 8:57 am

Didn’t the Rebbe say 3″ below the knee for skirts and dresses? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Hear, hear
April 24, 2013 8:53 am

I had the same orientation as the writer; Chassidic parents, Bais Yaacov (in my case), Tznius guidlines- knees ,elbows,
stockings,etc. There was never any need for extreme over- compensatory rules. We knew what was appropriate and dressed accordingly. That is how I raised my daughters here in Crown Hts. A grandmother

confusion
April 24, 2013 8:50 am

It is one thing to be confused. It is another to make a shita out of it. It is a third to stand up on a milk-crate and preach your confusion to the rest of the world.

ok!
April 24, 2013 8:44 am

now that we’ve over-discussed the topic of tznius ONLY in clothes, can we get to other aspects as well? such as : crazy loud music at chasunas!! how come its ok to blare loud music, changing chassidishe nigunim to disco songs etc. and piously proclaiming: we only have niggunim at our simchas!! sounds weird,no? hey people put on your thinking hats- tznius is a lifestyle- halacha is basic and encompasses all..stop trying to make it into a point system of clothes only..its a feel and look..aidelkeit has to shine off the Rebbe’s chassidim in ALL areas..

No accountability
April 24, 2013 8:39 am

I don’t understand why people try to justify their actions based on Halacha when its obvious they have never looked in a Shulchan Aruch

Well Done!
April 24, 2013 8:16 am

I’ve been saying this for years…you can wear funky colors & styles, colored nail polish & STILL be tznius. It’s all about the overall look. I always cover my knees, collarbone, elbows, yet I wear colored nail polish & a below the shoulder sheitel & still look tznius. Tznius does not mean nerdy!!!

Dressing Tznius shows AHAVAS YISROEL
April 24, 2013 8:08 am

since ones tznius saves lives (according to our Rebbe), be proud to walk down the street in a manner which benefits the entire community for the good.

Much to many good people were lost untimely, we need Hashem’s added protection today more than ever!

It was the Rebbe who linked untimely Tragediea to Tznius
We need to trust him, too much is at steak to ignore him!

Whoa........Whoa.........Stop Already
April 24, 2013 8:05 am

I am horrified at the COMMENTS on this article and want to add my opinion. When did Lubavitchers become so insensitive, judgemental and hateful??? This might be lengthy so if you don’t have patience to read, you can stop now. Why are the bulk of the comments ATTACKING this young lady? Why are people attacking her poor MOTHER who did not even write this article and who’s trying to do her job as a shlucha to the best of her ability? She has obviously raised a fine young girl who is concerned enough to write about a topic that is… Read more »

Tznius = Comunity safety!
April 24, 2013 8:03 am

Few other Halachos are directly linked to a comunity’s safety

If the truth were known PROBLEM SOLVED!
April 24, 2013 8:00 am

If women were more aware of the following I think they’d be far more careful to follow Halacha (g-d’s will) Many women don’t know that their Tznius has a direct impact on their, 1. family’s health, 2. Family’s safety! 3. Comunitiy’s safety (yes the safety of their neighbors) 4. Nachas from their children 5. Financial safety, (less prone to financial losses for bad things) Many Torah sources state that When a community removes it’s adherance to Kedusha & Tznius then R”L it removes Hashem’s added protection as well from that “machaneh”. May Hashem give all who need it the wisdsdom… Read more »

What is tznius?
April 24, 2013 7:57 am

If you are lucky enough to have the right upbringing you will ask yourself, “Es passt far Mir, or nisht?” Knowing who you are, where you come from, and what you should represent is all important. If your mother tought you “we don’t look at other people, other people look at US “! With total confidence and assurance, you will absorb the right attitude and never waver. May we all merit to greet Moshiach tzidkeinu NOW!

YAWN YAWN YAWN
April 24, 2013 7:45 am

I agree with posters 1-9 (which is where I’m about to post.) Ms Author: you are generally clueless, even though I thought you made some good points. But at the end of the day, Tznius IS important & yes, it DOES have to be taught for the simple reason that too many people don’t follow the Dinim. Just yesterday I saw 2 young mothers going for a power walk. Tichels half way back on their heads, footless tights (why bother?? But it was cold!) & short skirts – VERY short. Some example they show THEIR children. In Shul this Shabbos… Read more »

hahaha
April 24, 2013 7:18 am

you people are all so pathedic. let everyone wear whatever they want and everyone else kindly mind your own business

To #2
April 24, 2013 7:12 am

Have you actually read comment #1? Her whole point was that Halacha, by default, IS an extreme. (Relative to contemporary secularism).

#9 number
April 24, 2013 7:10 am

What is a BT o a FFB???

DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF!
April 24, 2013 7:05 am

Don’t sweat the small stuff! – otherwise known as “Pick your batttles! In these times, the writer is trying to say – if a person LOOKS tznius – covers everything and it’s not too tight – then her red nail polish and her big earings and perhaps, bright suit – might be called (as the Rebbe said in Igrot Kodesh many times about certain things) – “tofel” ()secondary)/ The idea, the Rebbe said – is to concentrate on the “ikur” (essential). In our times particulaly – if a person wants to display a bit of “personality” – but totally tznius… Read more »

DovBer
April 24, 2013 6:46 am

Its so sad that you feel this way. Although well written, in my opinion, on various points you are wrong. Basically, yes we do need to be strict and if i may call it a little “obsessed” to keep our dress code like it should be. We in our community, maybe because of our accepting of every Jew and our attitude “and she’s considered a very tznius woman in our community” have become lax and complacent with a dress code not befitting a Lubavitch girl. We have to call a spade a spade and not everything is acceptable and we… Read more »

Leave the BTs alone
April 24, 2013 6:40 am

We owe them a lot, especially after 3 Tammuz.

The girl is right
April 24, 2013 6:17 am

The issue of tznius in Chabad, is only made worse by the fact that we blow whistles in public places. The girls who are doing a fantastic job coping all of a sudden face a new test, public challenges of their looks. These issues should be left to mashpi’os and not the newspaper or the ‘pashkvil’. Girls that are tznius challenged are only using that as an expression of their trials and tribulations on various emotional issues. so when the pressure and heat is turned up in public it bares no real fruit, and probably quite the opposite. I urge… Read more »

You took the words out of my mouth!
April 24, 2013 6:16 am

And you couldn’t have said it better. I relate to the way you feel about tsnius as I often feel the same way. I know many women in the generation of our parents who dress with taste and in a manner that befits a Chassidiste of the Rebbe. And no one ever spelled the rules out to them. Today there’s a new problem. As you mentioned, girls want to blend into society. I recall my mother saying that as a girl, no one wanted to copy the billboards or the goyim in the street. We were a cut above. Because… Read more »

Lubavitch and BT's
April 24, 2013 5:33 am

Lubavitch is all about making people BT but then they’re never good enough for their own children when it comes to marriage….

Gosh!
April 24, 2013 5:28 am

Where in Shulchan Aruch does it discuss the length of sleeves and skirts??????

the boro park and flatbush women look frum
April 24, 2013 4:52 am

why keep knocking the boro park or frum look?? In fact our colletive error as a chabad out of the box attitude is that they look clearly jewish and our women and girls make every effort to look ‘like everyone else’.

We can learn and admire what there is to admire. these women are proud to look different and frum first. that is commendable.

Even though I struggle every time i go shopping and aspire to strike a good balance, i still admire these women and know that looking frum and modest is a real goal to attain.

the bt and to 9
April 24, 2013 4:17 am

The bt may have made the classes decision because she just dosent feel comfortable in them, in that case its fine. Or she may have been influenced by overzealous educators who virtually make color and style a sin in that case its not. Its definitely a fine balance and the key word here is balance.

Amen to that sister
April 24, 2013 3:40 am

Well written and tot true you’ve got a way with words keep it up 🙂

Very good article
April 24, 2013 3:27 am

Yes, the girl trying to decide if the glasses were flashy was doing the right thing and was probably right and many FFB, BT and whatever nonsense initials given to people to separate yiden R”L would feel the same, but your general article is priceless beyond words. Frum is not a contest, it’s a way of life. Do what the Ribono Shel Olam wants and Chabad hates blitus (people showing off how frum they are). If there are shaalos, ask a Rov or Mashpia (the first if covered by halacha, the second if a question in hadracha or general outlook).… Read more »

Lay off the Baal Teshuvahs already!
April 24, 2013 2:42 am

I think its high time that Lubavitch in general, not only this young lady, lay off the baal teshuvahs already. In your first comments about BTs, you assure your reader that your home was totally chassidishe and not BT at all. And later you judge and criticize a BT girl while she picked out her glasses. In fact, the BT girl was doing exactly what you are calling for, trying to determine whether the overall look is tznius. Maybe it was cute in your eyes but to the girl, the glasses were flashy and not tzniusdik and that is just… Read more »

educate yourself
April 24, 2013 2:39 am

Why don’t you open a dictionary and check the definition of the word modest…

Baruch S.
April 24, 2013 2:35 am

i mean, i think i get what your over-all gist is-that basically you don’t like the two extremes, and that everyone should just be tsnius without having to nit pick through the halachos. but…what? halachos define what is and what isn’t tsnius. to me, this article sounds more like you’re just not interested in people telling you how to dress, when you FEEL like your tsnius. i can understand your frustrations. you feel like you’re a chassid, and that you follow halacha to the best of your abilities, but don’t kid yourself into thinking that’s good enough. i don’t know… Read more »

just because...
April 24, 2013 2:31 am

… someone you love and respects wears maroon nail polish doesn’t make it right. Just because you were never privy to the fact that anything loud that draws attention is “un-aidel” and not becoming of a bas Yisroel, doesn’t change the facts. If you were growing up in a community were everyone dressed as befitting of a bas Yisroel, you would have absorbed the minutiae of what tznius is all about, just like you imbibed shabbos and kashrus the same way you imbibed your mother’s milk. It was natural, and there were less polutants in the air. Today whether it… Read more »

What's complicated, seems to be oversimplified to you...
April 24, 2013 2:06 am

If you didn’t insist on being condescending and patronizing by calling her “Young Lady” , maybe she’d consider listening to what you have to say. But sadly you did not, and that’s part of her point. Condescension never works if you so to speak believe in objective criticism.
As to your actual point, we don’t have “extremes” in Halacha, we might what would be considered extreme in regards to society. But that was not the point in question.

Tznius guidelines differentiate
April 24, 2013 1:47 am

between being attractive versus being provocative.

Hi
April 24, 2013 1:26 am

Don’t worry about Satmar or the Modern Orthodox. We have 1 REBBE and as long as we follow the path will be all right… If a recent Ball Teshuvah goes a bit to the extreme its only human nature obviously based on the past life she/he led they feel its important to take on specific Chumras and that’s OK. The problem is lake of information people don’t even have a basic clue why they are doing certain things its all a game… #SadButTrue…

To #1
April 24, 2013 1:23 am

Growing a full beard without trimming is Halacha, not an extreme.

It's complicated
April 24, 2013 1:05 am

Young lady, the matter is very complicated. The argument of “classy respectable dress” is all relative. 150 years ago, women wore long, supersized gowns all day, with gloves covering their hands. 50-60 years ago, women wore less oversized gowns (think: Mary Poppins). In the late 60’s – early 70’s, the style changed. Sleeveless dresses and skirts just above the knees became commonplace and are now considered “regal, classy and respectable” (think: Kate Middleton). Today, covering the knees and elbows is an extreme, whether you like it or not. The argument of “classy” has no place here, because even classy women… Read more »

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