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Tuesday, 25 Iyyar, 5786
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Prolonging the Machlokes

Op-ed by Yitzchok Wagshul: In the election for third Rov of Crown Heights, we need to prolong the “machlokes”— to debate the issues. Full Story

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To # 76
July 15, 2010 11:31 am

Thank you so much for your encouragement.

Unfortunately, publishing these maamarim takes money (even on the internet, because of the time involved), and that is the problem. If you know of anyone who wants to help support the project, please let me know!

Best regards,
–Yitzchok Wagshul

Chassidiste
July 15, 2010 1:15 am

The issue of women’s not voting in community elections, as I learned it anyway, is TZNIUS. It would not be tzniusdig for male candidates to even think of campaigning to women to receive their votes. Tznius is the bedrock of Torah life — if we lose that, we begin to slide down a slippery slope, as we all know. So while it may not sit well with some of us women that we can’t vote, let’s all realize that ultimately it’s for the good of our families and community. As for wanting a Rav you’re comfortable with for asking your… Read more »

#59
July 15, 2010 12:49 am

you are making a big mistake. the elections where woman were permitted to vote was after gimel tammuz, the people who caused that elections would not have the chutzpa to do it before gimmel tamuz. I personely know who the people were.

rav chaikin!
July 14, 2010 9:59 pm

rabbi chaikin from cleavland should be the third rov. he is such a mentch!!

www.likuteitorah.com
July 14, 2010 9:34 pm

R’ Yitchok
Actually as u r reading these blogs, the reading public of http://www.likuteitorah.com would luv if u added more content on ur site. Could I be as bold as to suggest another round of Parsheyos of LT.
It has been a real useful addition to learning

we want rabbi lifshits
July 14, 2010 7:52 pm

rabbi lifshits from cincinnati is a gr8 candidate for a rav maby somone should look him up and try and convince him

To 71 Hypocrite
July 14, 2010 7:40 pm

You just wrote a whole op-ed that was practically asking for more slander and Machloikes, but when it happens to you all of a sudden you say ‘what a shame’ ‘you are the communities probleom’!
Mr Wagshul YOU are part of the problem.

women voting
July 14, 2010 6:42 pm

It was decided with the first elections that women would not be eligible to vote, as well as men under a certain age who were as yet unmarried. This was presumably with the Rebbe’s agreement. The Rambam says that women cannot serve serve in leadership positions. At the start of the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948, a number of Rabbanim did not allow women to vote.

to 31
July 14, 2010 4:24 pm

you are nuts

To [those who posted negative personal comments]:
July 14, 2010 2:41 pm

I see that people are still posting to this item, so I would like to re-post an earlier response that, apparently, never made it onto the site: What a shame, what a shame. Fools like you–people of unaccountable hostility and ill-will toward even the most unobjectionable of others–are precisely who are at the root of our community’s problems; precisely the perpetrators of the last-minute “pashkvillin” I wrote about. My writing–in the present op-ed; in the recent Crown Heights Chronicle editorial (which, I should not have to remind you, was clearly presented as my personal opinion, to which I am every… Read more »

Can I possibly squeeze in somewhere?
July 14, 2010 12:49 pm

Mazal Tov Mazal Tov… A Binyon Odei Od……whoever comes in, be it a poshite yid rov or a gevaldeke lamedin rov, I just don’t care… we’re all heading to the same direction, like it or lump it, there’s nothing you can do about it. Min HaKarka Od HaKarka…… hello my friends forever.

Out of crown heights- non lubab Rov.
July 14, 2010 12:29 pm

I think it’s a great idea, look at Rabbi Risenberg, people may not agree with some of his rulings but they respect them because he’s not a meshichist or an anti, he’s not related to this side or brother-in-laws with the other guys uncle.

da---ed if you do da---d if you don't
July 14, 2010 12:26 pm

If you don’t sign your name on an op-ed (or a comment) they call you a cowered but if you do sign – you’re personally attacked.

go figure.

Reality
July 14, 2010 12:21 pm

Sadly to say, the only criteria now is: Is the new rav an osdaba man or is he Rabbi’s Schvei’s supporter. No other issue matters. Rabbi Schvei’s people would never vote for Segal because he would not properly evaluate any dispute and listen to both sides to form his own opinion, but would always side 100% with osdaba.

If women want to Vote, MAke it happen!
July 14, 2010 12:13 pm

As the only reason people still live in crown heights and didn’t move out in 60’s, is because the Lubavitcher Rebbe gave it the name “kahn tziva hashem es habrachah” and requested they remain, we should try and follow what the Rebbe had to say on the issue of the Crown Height Jewish Community Council election process, I haven’t seen the letter or instructions on how it should be run, but apparently the Rebbe wasn’t for having women vote. Buti would liek to make a suggestion to what can be done, setup a women’s committee and women can vote on… Read more »

salary
July 14, 2010 12:11 pm

How much is the salary?
I have a good candidate for the job
but money talks

baseless attacks
July 14, 2010 11:53 am

Why would anyone agree to run after the methods used in the last election: loshon harah, libels, hate. I am really disgusted.

Vive la difference!
July 14, 2010 11:45 am

A wise wife can influence her husband, if she has a strong opinion about an election, or about anything else.

Hashem, in His infinite, beyond-human-seichel-wisdom, gave us the Torah. Sure, there’s plenty of earthly “logic” for having women vote. But we are a people of the Torah.

Na’aseh v’nishmah.

To #7
July 14, 2010 11:35 am

I agree, it should be someone from outside Crown Heights and maybe even i non Lubavitcher. (although I think Rabbi Levi Garelik is also a great choice)

Look beyond crown heights
July 14, 2010 11:19 am

What about Rav Schusterman in California? He would be an excellent choice.

WOMEN CAN'T VOTE B/C THE REBBE SAID SO!!!
July 14, 2010 11:04 am

What is with all this garbage! This is Torah not politics! This was instituted by Torah! See the Rebbe’s summer sichas in 86!

i’m shocked!

Will full misleading or ignorant
July 14, 2010 10:53 am

Many of these comments are exactly like that many of you forget the main thing who is Lubavitch? The Rebbe is Lubavitch & Lubavitch is the Rebbe that is first & foremost the most important fact! The one election where the women voted for the chjcc/vaad hakahal was not in 1997(5757) it was 9 or 10 years before that in the late Mems.That was only because fisher challenged the legality of the chjcc/vaad hakohal in secular court. Tha one elction was only because of the court case that women had to vote & that was with the full knowledge &… Read more »

whats the big deal
July 14, 2010 10:45 am

it is one vote per household. And it only makes sense that the man go out and represent the household. If the man and the woman of the household are not on the same page, then women voting is not the answer to their issues

attention #7
July 14, 2010 10:33 am

“….a Rov of stature, dignity, strength of character and conviction – from somewhere else outside of crown heights.

We need a man who is above partisan politics, the type of person who the mere sight of him commands respect, a man of the time’s who holds on to the tradition of our ancestors with an unyielding grip.”

You sound like you are describing my Rav – Rabbi Dovid Schochet, Toronto.

To 42
July 14, 2010 10:31 am

Why do you want to quash debate, here is an opportunity for a Rov to explain why women can’t vote, because perhaps, (and unfortunately), more people read website articles than ask Rabbonim their Shaylos.
So if a Rov, or anybody who knows Halochoh can write where it says that women are not allowed to vote that would be appreciated.

Shemos 18:21
July 14, 2010 10:24 am

וְאַתָּה תֶחֱזֶה מִכָּל הָעָם אַנְשֵׁי חַיִל יִרְאֵי אֱ־לֹהִים אַנְשֵׁי אֱמֶת שֹׂנְאֵי בָצַע

Boruch N. Hoffinger BS
July 14, 2010 10:23 am

I didn’t read one of the comments, why?
There are no signatures.
Which means…
Either the writer is not proud of what they wrote…
or
They’re afraid of repercussions…
which means
They have no courage.
So why read any of them?
You can respond…
bhoffinger@aol.com

Let's ask For Rabbi levi Gurelic
July 14, 2010 10:20 am
What about Rabbi Lesches?
July 14, 2010 10:15 am

He has proved himself as Rov to the smaller, yet diverse Monsey community. Perhaps someone could persuade him to help us downstaters.

doc
July 14, 2010 9:34 am

i vote for doc from crown st/maple st for rov
he is a dayon

Old minded Russian's and "Modern Americans"..
July 14, 2010 9:23 am

Quote: “We are only now transitioning from the insular, Russian mentality of the neighborhood’s “early settlers,” if you will, to the more open, empowered, modern mindset of those people’s American children and grandchildren.” I would word it: “We are only now transitioning from the old ways of war and strife, to the mature and Jewish way of real Ahavas Yisroel and understanding that we can respect one another despite our differences in opinion.” For 2 reasons: 1. I wish we were like the: “Russian mentality of the neighborhood’s early settlers”, who as it is known had real chassidishe brotherly love… Read more »

This can Surely Help
July 14, 2010 9:00 am

This whole thing is to complicated. But we have a clear Horoah from the Rebbe to learn at least in the 3 weeks about the Bais Hamikdash Shaini in Middos and Hilchos Bais Habchira, Yecheskel Bais Shlishi and Give more Tzdoko Tzion Bemishpat Tipode Veshoveho Bitzdoko. To Make Siyumim from Rosh Chodesh Av to the 15th. Also the Rebbe stressed bringing Moshiach thru Ahavas Chinom to rectify the Sinas Chinam that brought the distruction. in 770 (Bais Chayainu) you have shiurim in the above and after Maariv there is a siyum. LikeWise In Empire Shtibel Between Mincha and Maariv there… Read more »

To Meir #14 Your reply was straight and to the point.
July 14, 2010 8:11 am

Nachman

Frusterated
July 14, 2010 8:06 am

I lost any respect for the author after he tried to pretend he was unbiasd and endorsed the outgoing vaad.

Also. I think women should be allowed to vote. Let’s move forward not backwards!!

Parshandosoh
July 14, 2010 6:32 am

We already have chosen, without even realizing it, the new Rov. It is Dayan Rosenberg.
He actually is the new Av Beth Din as he calls all the shots (and because he’s a fremdeh, actually gets paid, and well paid at that – kol hakovod to him).

azkir al hatzion.
July 14, 2010 4:58 am

If I may say so – may the rebbe be back by then. Azkir al hatzion.

#42 Let me guess...
July 14, 2010 2:39 am

…you are a man? How did I know? I must have a special talent… or… you just make it too easy. Yes, is it strange that a system for which all the rules were written by men, only men have the power and the authority to make decisions? Men decided that only men should be able to vote and the entire community is supposed to accept it. If it is so obvious that according to chasidus only men should have the right to vote then let the women and the men together decide if women should have voting rights and… Read more »

Laaniyas Dayti
July 14, 2010 1:35 am

1. This op-ed assumes that there will be a few candidates. I see none and can think of none. 2. The only one I know, who agreed to have his name on the ballot but would not campaign for it, has now withdrawn that commitment. A commitment to stand up and face the extreme difficulties, only because so much is at stake. For the Ribbono Shel Olam and for all the Rebbeim.. His family, as well as himself, have seen the appalling behavior during the run-off, so that they refuse now to allow him to be on the ballot. He… Read more »

Woman voting...
July 14, 2010 1:33 am

I know this is America, but i dont understand why COLLIVE is posting countless comments lately about woman voting (i suspect that all the comments are from a few individuals commenting again and again). To understand this issue you need to talk with your local chasidishe, competent Rov! not debate it with ignorant people on the web. maybe lets start a debate hare on COLLIVE as to why all Rabbonim are male and not female? Esteemed editor: Recognize the place of this website. it should NOT turn into a forum to debate halachic issues (i believe it instiles falls ideas… Read more »

Dear moshe der g
July 14, 2010 1:25 am

Do you think that by repeating your comments many times they will become more convincing? 🙂

#18
July 14, 2010 1:23 am

you are doing a very big disservice to the community.

If you want blame and anecdotes where one of the rabbonim listened to the cronies on his team – then there is (sadly) enough shmuts to go around on both sides, and highlighting them will do no one any good and make both sides look terrible. we need to focus on recruiting and electing an effective, totally neutral 3rd rov.

After that, we need to immediately remove all of the troublemakers on both sides, hire an independent, neutral secretary (mazkir) to work for ALL 3 rabbonim.

#8 Lets Talk Ideas
July 14, 2010 1:15 am

Why are you attacking the author of this Op-ed? If you have a problem with his arguments please let’s discuss them. but it is very immature to attack the messenger when you don’t like the message.

Let’s grow up and let us debate IDEAS and not belittle and smear people.

Moshiach Now!

Two points
July 14, 2010 1:15 am

Point 1: We must pick an OLDER rav – in case we aren’t pleased, the lifetime position won’t last that long. Point 2: Does the third rov need to be Lubavitch (or even a chossid)? Anyone can be the third rov – a satmar, a snag, a BT…He doesn’t even need to be a FFB, as long as he – 1) Has semicha for rabbonus; 2) Is married; 3) Is over forty years of age; 4) Is prepared to serve as a full-time rov if elected; 5) Is a resident of Crown Heights or commits himself to move here if… Read more »

Best Interest of the People
July 14, 2010 12:53 am

Thank you Mr. Waghul. Your point is very important and I sure hope the parties will do what is in the best interest of the people.

Dear Moshe Der G
July 14, 2010 12:43 am

I am deeply touched that you took the authors words so deeply to heart, to the extent you couldn’t even wait till August but jumped in straight away!

Lets Talk Ideas...
July 14, 2010 12:35 am

Why are you attacking the author of this Op-ed? If you have a problem with his arguments please let’s discuss them. but it is very immature to attack the messenger when you don’t like the message.

Let’s grow up and let us debate IDEAS and not belittle and smear people.

Moshiach Now!

Excellent article
July 14, 2010 12:31 am

Excellent and informative-thank you!

Chabadnik
July 14, 2010 12:29 am

We need a Litveshe Rav like in the old days in the Lubavitch towns. A Litvak will not be beholden to any party here. Choose someone from Lakewood. If you dont like a Litvak choose someone from Satmer. Just dont take anyone from Anash.

R' Mangel has my vote
July 14, 2010 12:29 am

I don’t know if he’s running but I wish he would!

Bring it on!
July 14, 2010 12:08 am

Yes, let us fight as long as we have an excuse, an opportunity like this may not come again in a long time.
The Vaad Hakohol elections are over, the Din Torah resolved many issues, and now after this election it may be very hard to find something to fight about, so as the author suggested, let us take this fight to the max!
Nice article, man, Meet you in the ring!

shouldn't be related
July 14, 2010 12:01 am

The candidate shouldn’t be related to or have a working relationship with either the present Rabbanim or Vaad Hakahal.

Debate
July 13, 2010 11:55 pm

Maybe you can get 2 opposing opinions to write op-eds on this website regarding the womans vote.

To Collive
July 13, 2010 11:54 pm

Why don’t you post any articles about women voting, to at least open the issue and discuss it so that people can voice their opinions and if there are any women (and I’m sure there are) who feel discriminated against will be able to voice their opinion and maybe understand why they can’t vote

what we need
July 13, 2010 11:36 pm

truth, honesty, earnestness, pro-active, well balanced. I pray for this. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. oh, so tired of this.

Wagshul, you've lost your credibility
July 13, 2010 11:30 pm

I lost my entire respect for Wagshul with the latest “special” edition of the CHC. It was one-sided propaganda from beginning till end. He had pages upon pages of paid interviews with only one side, but still considers himself objective.

Shimush
July 13, 2010 11:19 pm

Only mentions smicha as a critirea a rov must a have shimush leading a community. Perhaps a smaller out of town community but still must of already expirienced rabbonus in reality not just in Sefer otherwise most of CH has smicha
Now that narrows it down abit. Furthermore we could then look at trackrecords to help us as a larger community makethe right choice.

1997
July 13, 2010 11:06 pm

I believe that in 1997 women voted for the Vaad Hakohol elections (as mandated by court order), but if it is against Halochoh, did all the women who voted go against Halocho?

Get A Job- Wagshal
July 13, 2010 11:05 pm

If everybody has a Job , this nonesense would stop !

The Ladikgeyers are looking for attention because they dont fit in with the working class , they want to be noticed , Do Random acts of Good Deeds and bring Moshiach

a rov....
July 13, 2010 11:04 pm

who can be a middle player

The Gorilla in the room
July 13, 2010 11:02 pm

Would somebody address the issue of why women can’t vote?

Change the rules
July 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Why don’t they make the Rov’s term limited like they do with Israels chief Rabbis?

moshe der g
July 13, 2010 10:56 pm

why is that alot of people with their heads full of hot air want to speak and think they know it all

a) mr wagshul ia a person who sold the newspaper “crown heights chronicle” as a tool to elect certain parties both in the last election and in the one before that.

without ever disclosing who paid him to write his one sided newspaper

he thinks we are stupid and writes articles and became a groise dayer zuker

i am surprised that this was even published by this website..

Inevitable
July 13, 2010 10:53 pm

Chanina will emerge as the power of Crown Heights. R. schvei already listens to whatever he or his cronies dictate. Look at the Satmar shiva for proof.

Rabbi L. Garelik for Rov!!!!
July 13, 2010 10:50 pm

Helllo? Can anyone think of a better choice? Yeah yeah, he doesn’t want the job, but like I said before – who asked him what he wants!

Did anyone notice a transition of generations
July 13, 2010 10:48 pm

I guess we are holding by an 8th generation, although obviously a subset of the 7th generation, since this generation shares the same Rebbe (Chai VeKayam). Definitely a new generation in Lubavitch though… What do you think are the implications?

who are the candidates?
July 13, 2010 10:46 pm

what are the choices

Meir
July 13, 2010 10:37 pm

BS:d
I have no love for Mr.W as he refused to publish my candidate statement but to number 8 you are an evil person whose revelation abut Mr. W added nothing to the topic, only branded you as a sinner of the highest order and I hope and pray that Hashem Blesses you and your family with only good b;gashmius v’ ruchnius so the bitterness and hatred is erased from your heart and you are busy with good things-like building up the community

Question
July 13, 2010 10:28 pm

Being that Rabonim deal with many women, Shaylos regarding Taharoh, Kashrus, as well as divorce R’L so it is reasonable to say that the Rov should be someone who women respect and someone who they are comfortable dealing with and asking questions,
Don’t you think it is reasonable to say that it is essential that women be able to vote in this election?
If you agree or disagree, why or why not?

I disagree
July 13, 2010 10:20 pm

While i would usually say that it is better for there to be more time for an election, in this case I disagree because we have a relatively small community and everybody knows everybody or at least has a friend who knows the guy. Like the Gemoro says ‘Chavroh Chavroh ees lai’.
So there is no reason to make for more time to fight.

Yeah man!
July 13, 2010 10:09 pm

Let’s fight!

It's not just democracy
July 13, 2010 10:03 pm

“democracy is the best system we have” These elections are not democracy but halachah and truly an institution dearest to the Rebbe. By these elections we can have the strongest beis din possible — a beis din kavua. And the primary job of the newly elected vaad hakahal is to strengthen the beis din in all ways possible.

y is it lifetime position
July 13, 2010 9:57 pm

what if the rav is not as good as you think he will be

moshe der g
July 13, 2010 9:36 pm

why is that alot of people with their heads full of hot air want to speak and think they know it all a) mr wagshul ia a person who sold the newspaper “crown heights chronicle” as a tool to elect certain parties both in the last election and in the one before that. without ever disclosing who paid him to write his one sided newspaper he is also a disbarred lawyer. and if i were him would hide under a rock and hide. but here in CH he thinks we are stupid and writes articles and became a groise dayer… Read more »

Good Point
July 13, 2010 9:27 pm

and it got me thinking. A group of concerned anash who have financial backing, should scout and recruit a Rov of stature, dignity, strength of character and conviction – from somewhere else outside of crown heights. We need a man who is above partisan politics, the type of person who the mere sight of him commands respect, a man of the time’s who holds on to the tradition of our ancestors with an unyielding grip. A man who we can point to our children as an example, someone who will bring this community back from the edge. This man should… Read more »

me
July 13, 2010 9:24 pm

i think its all stuped its not such a big deal

So... IN that case...
July 13, 2010 9:24 pm

Does anyone know who is in the running for the third rov?
I heard alot of different names and rumors but I didnt hear of any one actual name.

WHATEVER
July 13, 2010 9:17 pm

AS A WOMAN, I DONT THINK IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE WHAT I THINK OF ANYONE WHO IS RUNNIN G FOR THIRD RAV BECAUSE I CAN’T VOTE ANYWAYS

Like this will help?????
July 13, 2010 9:09 pm

You really believe it will make a difference how long you know that a condidate is running? Theres not much to know about it.
Either you want to vote for them or not.

I totally agree
July 13, 2010 9:07 pm

the whole system we have now is backwards.
The public deserves to know more about a candidate and why they should vote tor them.
in the last election some of the guys won by default because people didnt want someone else to win.
what kind of election is that?

will that give more time
July 13, 2010 9:05 pm

for mendy hendel to write a better newspaper for you to print so that the community won’t utterly reject your “wisdom” and “unbiased reporting” as they did in this election?

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