Anonymous Op-Ed
Recently the tznius issue in Crown Heights has come to the attention of the masses. Many Rabbis and men of prestige have come up with many solutions to the matter. However I believe they lack of any practicality, as is evident from the fact there has not been any real improvement in the issue.
In the following I will present an idea that may help the situation dramatically. I would like to stress that a complete solution will have to incorporate many ideas together and the following is only one of them.
The issue I am referring to is the school uniform. Historically Jewish schools never had a uniform, and only in modern times did it become popular.
In fact, in Sharei Chinuch page 304, the Rebbe states that with regards to boys’ schools it is out of the question [to have a uniform] and with regards to girls’ schools it needs investigation. It seems the reason it was implemented in girls’ schools, was to enhance tznius. However it would appear in fact to have caused the exact opposite.
Women in general and girls in particular, are very self conscious of the way they look and which clothing they wear, and when schools force them to wear a uniform, they create a conflict between their instinct and education (besides that it’s a slight double standard, for the teachers themselves don’t wear them).
In addition, it gives of the impression that tznius is ugly and ‘nerdy’. Therefore as soon as girls come home from school, the first thing they do is change out of their uniforms into whatever clothing they feel is appropriate. And needless to say, often that clothing is not tznius.
Now if the schools would replace the uniform with a tznius dress code, then they can teach girls to dress tznius and leave room for self-expression at the same time. In addition, the girls will not see tznius as a contradiction to beauty but on the contrary, an enhancement to true beauty, for beauty is not just external. Also, when girls go home from school they will not dress into non-tznius clothing, for in addition to the above, it would be a financial burden to have two wardrobes.
I would like to reiterate that I don’t believe this alone will solve the problem. Rather that together with a proper education, it could cause some real improvement.
I am always amazed that when a problem is identified in Crown Heights, so many people are ready to scream fire and brimstone. I do not believe that this was the derech of the Rebbe…… Perhaps we should look at what has worked for Chabad, outreach, making people feel good about themselves, motivating them in a positive way. There is an issue or rather challenge with tznius today. I thing to a greater or lesser extent it exists everywhere, but since this is Crown Heights, why not try and understand the challenge(s) and solve it in the way that the… Read more »
but there’s a same issue with uniform. in my school although we have uniforms we can wear skirts wtvr length we want as long as its under our knee, and we don’t have to cover our collar bones. of course we have to do it at a reasonable length, but not completely. if ur trying to change tznius problems, do it with regular clothes to.
i go to bais rivka and i have a friend in public school and she always tells me how lucky i am to have a uniform and that her school is a major fashion show every single day and she spends 1,00 of dollars cuz she needs expensive clothes ouruniform happens to be alot nicer then most uniforms and collive or whoever writes these type of articles should stop writing such dumb articles because it just causes not nice feeling for our comunity how about write articles that will help the ungreatful ppl in our comunity realize and appreciate wat… Read more »
Satmar girls high school has no uniforms. They believe that
uniforms is chukas hagoyim and they feel that girls will
develop a taste for tzniusdike clothes if they wear regular
clothes on a regular basis. They seem to be able to implement the hallachas of tznius why not hire some of
their staff at our schools. I think with their experience they
can help fix us up.
I believe that one of the many ways we (myself included) could fix the issue of tzinus is by not making the girls dress in uniforms but rather their own clothes. Another idea is by everyone personally taking upon themselves to fix in their tzinus and when another girl sees that this specific girl is tzinus then hey, she’s a cute girl, she has friend, and she’s tzinus, so can I !! I strongly believe that its all about one person, you, yes you who is reading this comment, to start dressing more tzinusly, 1 step at a time and… Read more »
What on earth on u talking about!!!?!??!?? OF COURSE u can be tznius AND fashionable at the same time!! I no MANY ppl (and c alot more) who wear BEAUTIFUL clothing that are TZNIUS!!!!! wearing not Tznius clothing just meens that u want to show off u’r body! NOTHING to do with REALL beauty! Wearing Tznius clothing is not only ALOT prettier, but it shows u’r TRUE beauty! There are tonz of beautiful TZNIUS clothing out there that u can wear!!
I always looked at the school uniform not as a way to enforce the tznius as in dressed by the tznius standards, but tznius as in modest. Not everybody is able to express themselves through their clothes — they might not have a good taste or means to do so… and in this case uniform protects the child from all kinds of issues, like somebody not liking what she’s wearing or somebody able to buy fancy clothes and somebody doesn’t… this way we all have a white shirt and a blue skirt and can focus on other important issues outside… Read more »
i agree with many ppl here.
uniforms r great and make it soo much easier getting dressed in the norning!!
i also agree that yeah we shud still hav uniforms, but the rules in skool dont havta be so strict!
like hair and not being able to hav an undershirt sticking out.
Is all that rly necessary??? it seems small but that rly makes uniforms a pain!
but that has totally nothing to do with tznius. nooo connection.
Yeah what a great idea!…look how well it works with bochurim none the less! [SARCASM]
When I was in Camp there was plenty of competition with the clothes (from CH girls). Juicy socks, Juicy purses, designer clothes and shoes etc. I am a simple girl from out of town and boy was I in shock about the designer craze that was going on that I never experienced in my out of town community. Uniforms work out very well and lessens the wardrobe competition that girls might have.
A Bnos Menachem student. They shold let us wear are own clothes and just make sure its tzinus. When I was in camp there was no competition about how expensive your clothing is.
BRHS uniforms are beautiful compared to some that are out there. I had to wear a skirt that looked like a christmas outfit (found the same material in stores made into dresses and vests around their “chuge”) and dark green sweaters!
why is it that people have enough time on there hands to write long rambling comments on COL
i never go online to all the news websites but i happened to today and this is about the most frustrating piece ive ever chanced upon! first of all, ridiculous idea. second i cant agree more with whoever said the uniform is a great idea but the rules that come along with it make me want to change when i come home! no undershirts, no earings that arent studs, no nail polish, only solid socks, only black shoes (no white stitching?!?!) hair pulled back, not more then two bracelets ect ect i mean dont u think thats a bit too… Read more »
Shalom u’vracha You should reconsider what you said. First of all SHELLS ARE NOT TZNIUS!!! Firstly, they are tight (OSSUR al pi din). Secondly, they are thin (so even with a LITTLE breathing room, still exposes a person’s physique, and hence is ossur). Modesty/tznius is about humility more than anything else. Following ‘current fashion’ is ALL about ARROGANCE. Modesty/tznius is about focus on inner beauty and unity. Fashion is about focus on outer surface and individuality. This attempt to FOLLOW popular style is avoda zara. and “ein ladavar sof”. (There is no end to it). Pretending a person is still… Read more »
but you know what would be evan more great is if they would considder this in la bais rebbe 😉
This article is ridiculous and non-sense. The problem is not the uniform. Stop finding excuses for untzniusdike women. The problem are: 1) education; 2) female teachers and parents who are not role models themselves in matter of tznius; 3) how is it that parents allow their daughters to have UNTZNIUSDIKE CLOTHES AT HOME? 4) when someone doesn’t want to wear tznius clothes, she simply doesn’t want to, whatever teh reasons, and she will always find excuses as ridiculous as this one! If girls are properly educated in matters of tznius, if they are inspired by their mothers and female teachers,… Read more »
Why do soldiers wear uniforms,yet each may have a different job? Ego is the problem,humility the answer! Not fashion fascism dictated by some French or Italian guy that probably hates women to begin with,or some anorexic model strung out on drugs!!!!
We will win!! Fight the fashion house fascists and join the Rebbe’s army!
wasn’t a prob with short skirts until they made everyone wear midcalf cuz no one likes it and can’t make it long so just shortens it and vwalla! everyone’s knees are showing! not a good idea and I don’t think they had this prob when we were able to wear long skirts! neck and elbow prob I don’t have a solution for that, it has to come from themselves which means the chinuch at home or school isn’t very gr8. we ARE still in galus! moshiach now!!!
Schools have a power to reinforce standards. The standards are always a drop lower than what you set. That’s why Bais Rivkah needs such a high standards. That’s why Bais Yaakov has such high standards. By them, no one dares to walk around with a skirt that doesn’t cover their knees. Just for the looks they would get. But in Crown Heights, no one cares… We need higher standards!
I completely disagree that you can’t be fashionable and tznius- with a properly fitting long sleeve shell as a layering piece- you can have an array of options. Jackets, cardigans, blouses, decorated no sleeve tops- There are so many delicious skirts that are not too short or have slits or too tight- why do we have to kill ourselves with killer high heels- as far as uniforms- they could be updated to look better but parents would have a fit at the cost. the original BM uniform was much nicer but the parents complained. People who dress untznius – do… Read more »
I agree with 57 its true that when some pencil skirts are worn and that person sits down the skirt tends to ride up above the knee. However most uniform skirts are flary so when one sits down it doesnt ride up above the knee. In fact they are even longer when I sit down then when I stand.
I’m still in school and my school sends u home if ur not wearing the right socks And u get an infraction if ur top buttons open
As a parent i think uniform is the best thing. I think that the style of the high school skirt with all the pleats is a very bad style for most. Why cant we make a few different style skirts in the same color. There needs to be choices.
donno. all the girls in my shul who wear skirts two inches below the knee have 1/2 their knees showing when they sit. And R”L they have to cross their legs too? a naierer meshugas – not only the knees but the underside of their theighs too.
please sit in front of a full length mirror. Maybe the sight will help you to stop lying to yourself. Cos two inches below the knee just ain’t tznius
“the uniforms cannot be fashionable AND tznius at the same time…. ”
please describe exactly how you (or your wife?) was dressed this afternoon.
No wait – I’m sure it wasn’t the least bit tznius, because it’s obvious that you “cannot be fashionable AND tznius at the same time….”
very well written i agree with every point on it and Iam a brhs high school girl and there are other ways people judge other people in the halls shoes, bags, and hair styles high school cant start making bags and shoes and make us where our hair all the same!
Bright red is always an eye catcing color, and therefore intrinsicly non-tznius. Don’t have the Shuchan Aruch HaRav at my fingertips right now, but look up Ketzos Hashulchan chap 146 end of paragraph, s.v.Tzoveia, Responsa Be’er Moshe 4:147:14. Or call your Rav. Personally, I like the idea of penalizing the teachers for not dressing properly. The Rebbe did say that all teachers must dress tzniusly at all times. If the schools won’t fire them, at least let then suffer some other consequence for totally confusing the girls (and preschool boys) in their classrooms, just as the students are penalized for… Read more »
This will completely turn the schools into fashion shows. In our Schools, here in Monsey, Ny, the skirts must be 4 inches from the knew and not much lower than that either. Long skirts to the floor are NOT tzniyusdig, because they cause attention to themselves. They are, though, allowed to pick any navy blue zippered are button down sweaters, whish ever style and company they want, as long as there are no designs. If they go out on the streets right after school are the go to public functions they Must wear their uniforms. In the beginning of the… Read more »
you guys are all forgeting that its on the inside that counts.im a teen in ch and trust me,i would love some space for selfe expresion,but thats not the point.you have to take a look at both sides off the argument before you come up with a conclusion. no,i dont specifically like the uniform,but thats life.learn to look on the inside off a person before you judge them by their clothes.it would be nice if the uniforms where cut a little bit more femininely,and we could have more choice for the style off our accessories,but thats not happening any time… Read more »
(to number 13 lol)
solution:
Keep the uniforms just upgrade them a little!!! How about a short black skirt with box pleats, still uniform-ish but more up to date? and your choice of any solid color button down shirt, again still uniform-ish but allows some free expression color wise.????
you girls look buitefull just the way it is so why get dresd so unproperly get dressd the proper way tznius and more shidduchim will happen.
1. the uniform has no problems at all,, for people who cant decide what to wear or cant afford it its great -for the minority who dosent like it,, perfect.. change after school. 2. if someone doesnt dress tzniusdik either bc thats how it is at home 🙁 or bc they dont want to- believe me the school is not changing anything, on the contrary, when the school enforces the dress code rules that person will be even more not tzniusdik. 3. if the school didnt pick the wrong fights than maybe the uniform/ dress code could be enforced. but… Read more »
go uniforms.
I admit it will certainly be anoying to have to decide what to wear every day when i wake up.
but honestly i think it would work because if I went shopping for all snius cloths i wouldnt go shopping all over again for not snius cloths.
it would work as long as the school was actually strict about a dress code.
while the author of the op-ed may have been mistaken as to the purpose of uniforms here are a couple of points to support his premise. A.) the competition is already there. in clothing when they aren’t in school on shabbosim and in other things Ipods cell phones nick nacks etc’. B) over here it could be a controlled competition by schools enforcing certain prices. (although it’ll never fully work it would bring prices down). C.) this is a competition that is part and parcel of being a girl/woman it comes with the territory, better get used to it when… Read more »
well, there are 2 sides to every coin! maybe your right! but for me, a Bnos Menachem girl, i am so grateful for the uniform! First of all, i dont have to pick what im wearing every day 2nd, $ . its cheaper to have 3 skirts and 3 shirts for the whole year, 6 days a week! 3rd, no competition! my friend comes from a school were there is no uniform and she said how the whole class is competing, and the girls with less, feel less. 4th, styes get out of hand. the school has to always make… Read more »
????????????????????
So why did the uniform idea work a lot more positive than negative in bais yaakov??
its the best thing ever created
maybe that couple that you saw also rebelled when she came home from school and threw off her uniform for something a little tighter and shorter – know you see where it starts.
“I, and many other students, appreciate the uniform, (we do not change when we come home,” i dont understand your comment, YOU yourself wrote that this article doesnt talk to you then it must be the girls in your class that you are smart enough not to hang with. and just to mention a point here – i was driving down west broadway in monticello on sunday, i saw 2 girls from a CH family, her father is “gezhe” yes right after they turned the corner their skirts were pulled up to 3-4″ ABOVE the knee. my question is do… Read more »
I must say #45 answerd ur question really well……….
pls take to heart!
mayby just maybe stop talking about it so much and the problem will get fixed
students hate hanhala cracking down on their self expression that when school add rule on shoes, they go to the hair. when school makes rule with hair, they go to the undershirt…
so yes – when they graduate they are itching to rebel.
i saw a classmate the other day in literally close to nothing and was shocked!
but thinking how i heard the school speaking to her many times – with such a strong hand and disregard for feelings – i just felt sadness in my heart with the “system”
while i was a high school student i loved the uniform and wore it all day! as a post sem girl it’s so enjoyable to go shop and build a real wardrobe. the idea might sound annoying to the students at first – but it will help them build a closet full of nice tznius clothing. the school will obviously make rules that will keep things normal. it’s real great life prep for them. as for the money thing – these days you can find nice clothing for decent prices if you know where to shop and the girls are… Read more »
However, the uniforms are a benefit in many areas not the problem.
If it were high-school girls that were walking around untznius, that would be one thing, but it’s grown women and girls who are leading the pack.
Next op-ed, why do married women and single girls (in shidduchim [as if thats why they should]) not dressing tznius.
Better yet, why do teacher’s wear heels and makeup to school (do they) or EVER in public.
NO Jewish woman should be paying so much attention to her appearance when she’s out in public.
To #46 – Double LOL!
Haha number 13.. in your face!!!!!! :):):):):):)
if u noticed, most of the ppl. that say they like uniforms are students or parents of students. i would be very upset if my school didnt have a uniform, and sometimes if i have a problem deciding what to wear i want to wear my uniform. i think the uniform is actually comfortable and people dont change after school because of the tznius issue. the only problem is the rules that come with the uniform that can drive you up the wall. taking away the uniforms i think will make people dress less tzniusly! (for example. if one person… Read more »
Did you ever walk past the school on President and Bklyn Ave? Notice the uniform? A uniform means that there are different ‘energies’ in my life; we cant just ‘hang out’ all day long, even tho in the ’60’s they thought it would work ( and it didnt). A uniform tells me that there is a part of my day and a part of my life that is serious business, which, if one is healthy, yields great satisfaction.. And then there is the more relaxed part, which allows me to internalize the effects of the work. Ratzoh and Shuv. Similar… Read more »
1.We shoud l not have to look at the goyim to do whats right.
2.Even if impletementing a tznuis dress code is harder than a uniform,if it will improve tznius it must be done. ?
200 Solution for ch I think this may be a solution for ch tznius issue For men and ladies who see a non tznius lady to tell her ” by dressing this way you bring shame to the Rebbe, Hashem your family and kids and the community! However if you dress proper you then will bring honor to the Rebbe Hashem your kids and family and the community! I really think if many of us say this 20 second sentence to all those not tznius ladies than if they hear it enough it will make them feel uncomfortable and make… Read more »
I LOVE UNIFORMS
I LOVE UNIFORMS!!!!!!
I LOVE UNIFORMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO BAIS RIVKA && THEIR UNIFORMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. i happen to think the brhs uniform is really cute
with out uniforms school become a fashion show
about 4-5 years ago, wearing a skirt above one’s knees was practically unheard of… some people were slowly going borderline, but at that point, it wasn’t yet by the masses, and the pressure wasnt on. The BR girls used to wear skirts down to the floor. Until one day they decided that that wasnt tznius (which isnt true! maybe its shlumpy, but tznius?!) so they told the girls to shorten the skirts. Next thing you know, everyone is walking around in just at the knee skirts! Hmm.. and guess what?! that doesnt look shlumpy- in fact BR girls were beggining… Read more »
High school girls in crown heights are not the problem, its the older girls that dont dress tznius. The only solution is to make girs WANT to abide by the rules.
Tznius is a big pronlem..But dont get distracted on the side ponits. uniforms are not a problem, tznuis is and they have nothing to do with each other. dont blame ur problems on something else.
cant agree with #47 more. speaking from personal experience. that happened to me. its not about the unifroms-keep them i love them-its about enforcing little details that are not about tsnuis at all! seriously! i had my grade lowered because i was wearing the wrong colored undershirt!!!
no uniforms for me growing up and deciding what to wear to school was a huge waste of time and energy. it really makes no difference but to girls in high school it becomes everything. schools everywhere use uniforms to make things more simple. frum schools abide by that as well as assuring the tzniusdik dress. its pretty simple
ive never laughed so hard i can knock out e/t u said
1. uniforms were not implemented for tznius
2.if s/o will dress not tznius at home they will nywy – no connection to buying tznius clothes 4 skewl (
3.no one is not tznius cuz they think that their uniform is nerdy – please !
4. if now they wear their skirts short if they dress there own way it will be tight too
5 the problem has NOTHING to do with skewl uniforms
as a brhs student i dont feel uniform is the problem i feel all the rules that come with the uniform causes the problem for example mid calf skirts .if i did not have to wear a mid calf skirt i would not be changing into a different skirt when i got home, because wearing a mid calf skirt makes me personally feel uncomfortable , and if having the skirts two inches below the knee instead of 4 will improve tznius WHY NOT? yes u may say but then girls will go to 1 inch and then one inch above… Read more »
Please look at your self before judging others.
As a matter of fact,it destroys individuality,by creating class warfare,jealousy.envy and distracts from attention to more important and meaningful Jewish expressions of individuality.-D.Benveniste,Tsfat
P.S.-“…Because there was an increase in scores for some tests in the school with uniforms, an ANOVA was calculated to determine if the increase in proficiency scores over time was significant. Results of the test indicate that the increase in proficiency scores for the Citizenship and Science tests were significant.”-The Ohio test scores,the number one and most used I.Q.test score in America <http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi?acc_num=osu1153354717>
this is crazy!!!
as much as i dislike my uniform, im glad i have it. without it, u would have SUCH competition. below.
“Did you see what so and so was wearing yesterday?”
“So and so is wearing such a nerdy length skirt”
etc, etc.
if brhs did not have a uniform girls would b shopping all day and not studying and have so many problems with competitoin and just like ppl sorten their skirts after school they will wthout a uniform! this article makes no sence!
one of the most ridiculous op-eds on this site ever!
I work in a school in Europe and students who belong to the student council (which means they were elected by staff as mature and responsible students for various duties around the school) were given the opportunity to help design a new uniform.
If the school gives guidelines and the students help design a number of uniform styles (acceptable to the hanhala), they can then put it to the vote of the whole school. Once the design is chosen the majority, in theory, they should be happy with it and therefore will wear it gladly.
the tighter the fist the more kids/people will rebel. what you have to do is make being tznius attractive. teach them that its more classy and attractive to be tznius and unattractive to be untznius. you cant bully someone into something it will only make that thing more attactive.
Im all for uniforms, but what got out of hand is the strictness of the length of skirt, if the socks had a white thin stripe , the undershirt sticking out…the shoes. the way the school enforces it leaves a bitter taste in the girls mouth. of course they cant wait to get out of the uniform and rebel!
U still had ten facts just messed up numbers
the color “red” has always been a “no” in halacha – check out the sefer hachinuch. and alot about halacha is hergesh. as lubavitchers where “lifnim meshuras hadin” is expected as we have chassidus and a Rebbe- and the world expects it from us it should be standard that we women don’t wear “red nail polish”. aside for the fact that within the halachos of tznius, anything that attracts attention to our bodies is questionable – hence the red nail polish is not ok.
i am of the generation that never had to wear uniforms and when i see my children and/or grandchildren wearing those ‘nerdy’ uniforms, i cringe.
there is no reason, the uniforms cannot be fashionable AND tznius at the same time….
Our uniforms happen to be normal and please don’t take away our uniforms!!!!!
Many decent schools have a uniform. Nothing to do with tznius . Its more about class. It also avoids competition, and the school turning into a fashion show,…. Dumb article. Probably written by a bona fide Bimbo
This women or man has an amazing point, however, you must take in regard that if the girls HAVE or OWN not Tznius clothes, what makes them not come to school wearing them? As much as I dislike wearing a uniform, I wear it and I DONT change when I come home. I dont think people are judging you based on your uniform. People are not going to say, “OMG, that girl, shes wearing such a nerdy uniform, shes such a nerd.” At least I dont do that. Im in the middle. I dont change the second I come home… Read more »
omg! this article makes absolutely no sense at all!! do you hear what u r saying!!!
1. if someone wants to be untznius when they get home they will do it regardless
2.WE ARE GIRLS!!! do u know how long it will take to get dressed every morning and how hard it will be for faculty to make sure everyone is tznius!!
3. this idea does not fixed the tznius problem at all!!!!! why not start with the people out of school and married….i think they are a way bigger problem than the brhs girls….
uses this approach. No uniforms but very strict tznius standard. Any girl caught in short skirt, cosmetics or nail polish, too tight, hair out, etc, anything that to their bais yakov high standards “doesn’t pas”, they send her home insatnatly. After you’ve missed that many days of school, you’re done playing shtick and you just start showing up looking the way you’re supposed to. From the other perspective, every girls now has a complete and functional wardrobe, according to her style and fashion sense, that is not nerdy or hated, but is 100% tznius. Nobody goes home to change- they… Read more »
you do realize that its not just in crown heights that there are uniforms, dont you? this article is absolutely ridiculous. all bais yakov schools have uniforms and it doesnt seem to have backfired. you need to come up with another excuse for the girls not dressing tzniusdik. perhaps they simply just dont want to. im sick of all the excuses, my mother abused me, my father abused me, my teacher, the principal- its always someone else’s fault. own up to the responsibility and admit that this a choice you have made and continue to make every single day.
i have to say that yes, there is a issue with the tsnius but the main issue is with married woman. yes some teenage girls are also not tsnuis but the main problem is with married young woman. open up your eyes crown heights.
still a very strong point in this article
I loved waking up in the morning and not having to think about what to wear that day – if the top matched the blouse or what sweater will look complimentary. The uniform afforded me many hours of precious sleep and study time. It’s actually annoying now as a working woman sometimes in the morning to go through my closet and choose what to wear. Also, I just stayed in my uniform all day unless I had somewhere important to go. I did come home at 5:00pm and then had homework…who was I dressing up for anyway! I did have… Read more »
This article makes no sense. Uniforms are worn in every part of the world. of course in our frum school we choose tzniusdik uniforms. It is the best thing for the kids and the parents. If the girls are so desperate to express their style, maybe they have a self esteem issue otherwise a normal functioning girl should be just fine.
This article has zero truth to it. At least the girls are tznius while they are in school. Yes Tnius in CH is a big problem, but by taking away uniforms, which I believe makes life easier on parents and girls, is no solution.
Uniforms bring some formality to a school, which I understand every school needs tremendously.
This article makes no sense whatsoever. I cant believe I wastes my time reading it. What a twisted take on things!
Nothing is changing, except it’s getting worse. You’re beating a dead horse. It ain’t stopping. We need to
a) move (halevei!)
b) wear blinkers
c) if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em (G-d forbid.)
We’re trying to move away and my husband walks with his head down when he’s on Kingston. At least all my daughters make me proud. I can’t control other people’s kids or wives.
Time to give up. Maybe we should worry about the three (yes, 3) couples I saw 2 weeks ago within a 2 hour window on Shabbos holding hands. Is that better????
Even the goyim have discovered this. Education is the Rebbe’s most important thing Unfortunately, the goal of most regimes is to have dumbed down populations to follow their empty will.
i like that idea!!! i hate uniforms!!!!
Think of how long it would take students to get ready every morning when they have to decide what to wear! Uniforms are great and we love them.
used to be we quoted a source, now we are quoting shaarei chinuch, which has been compiled by a private individual from thousands of letters, talks & private yechidus of the Rebbe, without quoting the question, circumstance or individual (or mosed) it happened with!
in israel all girl schools have uniforms, in europe all schools have it too, & it is there for equality & yes it does help with tznius
i LOVE uniforms.
just imagine having to decide what to wear every morning. i would be late to school everyday, cuz it would take me so long to decide what to wear. the prob isnt tht uniforms r nerdy ant etc…. its just tht everyone always wants to beat the systme. when the school says one thing, all the students want the opposite.
my teachers always say how they wish they had uniforms so they wouldnt have to stress about what to wear every morning.
whoever came up with uniforms… THANK YOU!!!!
looking at it from one angel. there are many more resins for a uniform.
tznuis comes from within, as parents we must show by example.
Once during a speech I explained that when you have a girl forced to wear a certan outfit as long as she is not comfortable with it. All she will do her whole life (in school) is dream what will she dress in when she will leave.
And beause it is becoming from a rebellion ( how minor it may be) the outfit will become anything that flatters the wearer.
Have fun finding clothes for your kids to wear during the morning rush before school!!!
I’m a BRHS student and i love the uniform! its genius! don’t take away the uniform i think if someone wants to express themselves there are many other ways to and if their personal way is to do it through dress there are ways you can do so through the uniform.
I personally don’t know what I would do if I had to get dressed every morning before school and decide what I was going to wear. For me, uniform is the greatest blessing! It would be so so much harder for the schools authority to enforce tznius if the girls were wearing their own clothes. They would be sending girls home right and left. This way, all thy need to say is ‘button your tznius button’ or ‘shorten/lengthen your skirt.’
please specify which code of halacha you are revering to as i have been flipping the pages of the shulcan harav and cannot find any reference to red nail polish.
please do not confuse halacha with hergesh. One is taught in school and one is taught at home.
Who exactly, is going to check if the girls are tznius in their clothing that they bring to school. I was a counselor in BJJ Teen Camp, and it was a nightmare making sure all the girls were tznius. between, socks, shoes, nailpolish, necklines, skirt lengths, sleeve length, tightness etc… it’s a full time job
Unfortunately, your ‘solution’ only points to what is really the problem: The rationale for uniforms in the frum girls schools outside of Crown Heights has less to do with concerns of tznius then with preventing resentment among those girls who can’t afford to keep up with the clothing standards of their more affluent friends. The reason I’m saying this is because in these communities, the notion of a girl coming home after school and dressing into something inappropriate for purposes of “self expression” is not even on their radar screen, and if it ever happened, such a girl would be… Read more »
What is the original source cited? I mean what does Sharei Chinuch quoting?
I like that! Sounds like a creative way to address this problem
I heard this idea before, and I think that this is wrong. My own girls stay in the uniform until bed time. If we replace uniform with dress code – things will go out of control even worst. Some “popular” girls will show up in schools in not so tznius dresses, and it will be very hard to send girls home. Girls should learn how to express themself in learning and not by cloth they wear. Beis Yakov girls have uniforms as well, but they don’t have that much problems with Tznius. We must raise our standards and not to… Read more »
I understand where you’re coming from and it’s great that you’re putting ideas out there BUT I honestly don’t think this will work. Growing up in a non-religious atmosphere, I went to a public high school. Although we didn’t have uniforms, we still had dresscodes to uphold some modesty. For girls, the rules where as follows: no spaghetti strapped tops, no cleavage and midriff showing, shorts and skirts must past fingertip length. And let me tell you this; once spring came rolling around, many girls were walking around with shorts that resembled undergarments! (Okay, maybe not that short, but you… Read more »
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I like the idea of a tznius dress code. Let’s start with the teachers. The should lose 1 day’s pay for every thiime they show up at school wearing anything in violation of halacha. Come in with a short skirt, slit, a sleeve that rides up above your elbow, too low or wide neckline, a snug shirt, and bright red nailpolish and voila…. you lose an entire WEEKS pay for 6 violations! That money can then be used to pay the teachers who know how to dress, and everyone will be happy!
Light and wisdom shed on this matter. well said!
i hope school administrations listen!!
i love my uniform and i think it helps with tznius tremendously
School uniforms were originally implemented to prevent children from poorer homes to feel self conscious when they couldn’t compete with the expensive clothing worn by some.
This was done long before tznius became an issue.
Uniforms are meant, as the word suggests, to create uniformity. All students while at school will dress accordingly and depending on the school, in a tznius way. The school then teaches, together with reinforcement from parents, how to behave in and out of school. If you don’t have uniforms, the schools will waste the majority of its time and energy enforcing a dress code. By nature an element in every society will attempt to push the boundaries. Are you prepared to send all girls home if not appropriately dressed, and to be consistent? If not, the first compromise and you… Read more »
but it (taking away uniform) would cause jealosy and competition ect. and it would become such a focus on gashmius.
AGRRE
Great idea! The high school i went to had a dress code just like the one you explained. Yet they still enforced laws of tznius and personally i loved it! It taught me how to dress. I looked tznius but i still felt comfortable and had plenty of room for self expression! Great idea
The purpose of uniforms is not only for tsinut. It is a fact that there can be a very undesirable competition in dress – Who can afford to wear stylish dress, or designer names, expensive attire to show off etc,etc. Therefore, why don’t we choose a style of uniform that is a bit more complimentary to the girls so that they can be proud of it and perhaps even enjoy wearing it?? Then who knows , it may even be a pleasure to be tsanua and be “classy” too even just for school!! The uniforms that are worn are simply… Read more »
girls in crown heights only feel like that cause the uniforms ARE nerdy!
As a student of Bais Rivkah, I disagree with your article completely. The uniform does not give my fellow friends and I the “impression that tznius is ugly or nerdy.” BRHS’ uniform happens to be one of the prettiest uniforms I’ve seen. Yes, uniforms may not be the solution to help tznius, but the proofs and reasons you give in your article are definitely not correct. I, and many other students, appreciate the uniform, (we do not change when we come home,) and we don’t see it as a contradiction to beauty. I do not think that your philosophy will… Read more »
I believe that one of the major reasons that uniforms were implemented in our schools was for financial reasons. Girls from well to do families were coming to school dressed to kill and girls from struggling families came to school dressed like the poor relatives. It was therefore decided that in order for all girls to be equal, and no one should feel embarrassed about their clothing, everyone had to wear a uniform.