This is a letter that I have written to Southwest Airlines about a major kashrus blunder that one of the flight attendants did and then went on to brag about. I know that there are no kashrus symbols on Airplane coffee pots but I felt since some people think only coffee goes into coffee pots, it should be known that that is false.
I am a huge southwest fan and the experiences that I have had with your airline have been amazing. This whole trip experience was not any different in ticketing, departure, arrival and flight attendant care. The major major complaint I have is about what I heard one of the very sweet and friendly flight attendants say to one of the passengers on how she prepares her food.
There were 3 flight attendants, a male and 2 females. One of the females was very tall and one was short. This complaint is pointing at the shorter of the two. She was telling a passenger how she makes her own steak salad. She prepares the vegetables and bacon and places them in a container. She then buys a nice piece of meat and sears it at home and then slices it blood red and takes a few slices on the plane with her. She then went on to tell this passenger that to prepare her meat for the salad she COOKS IT IN THE COFFEE POT IN THE BACK OF THE PLANE!!!! She then said she rinses it out in the bathroom. My own hands hardly fit in the bathroom sink, how can she properly clean a coffee pot?! I highly doubt she used hot soapy water or even a sponge for that matter.
I didn’t say anything to her since I felt it was not my place but I was appalled! As a Jewish woman who keeps the strict laws of Kosher, this would be a huge error on my part to drink from this coffee pot. This would be a huge mistake to any person who is hindu, muslim or even vegetarian! What if she had mistakenly bought meat infected with salmonella or any other type of bacteria and then inadvertently infected anyone who drank coffee she would then brew?!
From a health standard, there are so many red flags I can’t even begin to point out! What made it even worse was that she went on to say that she learned this “amazing idea” from fellow flight attendants as well as from the internet.
I will now tell everyone I know in my Jewish community as well as major kosher supervision plants about what I had heard so they will not make a huge mistake by drinking coffee that could potentially have bits of meat floating around in it.
I would hope that you will take this complaint with as much seriousness as possible and please do something about it!
I hope to hear back from someone as soon as possible so I know my complaint has been addressed.
– Becky Brownstein
Ah my friend the celebrity. 😉
It would be wiser, I think, to just ask for sealed bottles or cans of soda or water when traveling.
Botul beshishim only applies when both substances are liquids. A small piece of treife fleish in a big pot of liquid is NOT botul beshishim.
oh my i just realized that its you becky! this is terrible but thanks for sharing! its important we all know these things…
fly el al
lets stick to our own pizza shops, and bakeries for coffee and danish, we never let our kids go to these other coffee shops , even just to meet friends or study.. Would you go to a Macdonalds just for a slurpie or a soda…. ???? Its pretty much the same thing!!!
last time i was on a plane, i heard someone behind me complaining that they emptied out the coffee pot in the toilet on the bathroom! even from a health standpoint that’s really disgusting! there are all sorts of particles in the air and plenty of things that can splash onto the coffee pot on the airplane. really gross.
Nowadays it has become the norm 4 all to drink in Second cups and other coffee shops Its on a regular basis and planned, Its the place to meet … and it’s not OK!!
BH In the Shulchan Oruch YD114 the Yad Ephraim says that it is ok to drink coffee and tea in the home of a non-Jew, so long as it’s not done all the time. We are not worried about bishel achum or the kailem because chances are that they were not used in the past 24 hours. (Even if they were we say it’s ok becuase you’re not doing it an a regular basis.) Of course, this is without milk. For this reason it would include a cofffee shop or a plane as well. See also the Pischay Teshuvah YD… Read more »
A bunch of us were sitting at a wedding tonight an decided not to drink coffee at any of the second cups that r not run by yidden. also the ones that r run by yidden but sell cholov yisroel and not cholov yisroel, and danish that r pas yisroel and not, u really have to be careful u don’t know what goes on behind the scenes!!!
…with #20. This article was evidently meant as information and everyone has turned into their version of Psak Din.
and now we have people saying not to fly on the airline because it shouldn’t be trusted. Gee….what’s next?
easy. don’t drink coffee on southwest. For that matter don’t fly southwest it’s obviously an airline that one cannot trust.
that’s why I never drink hot drinks in any none kosher store…and you want to hear something else, what about 7 eleven stores for a slurpy? even the 7 eleven stores who have a hachsor I dont trust!!! go look into that!!!
It doesnt matter if nothing happened or its very improbable that something bad will happen, she’s serving what people think is strictly coffee, even if you are ignorant its common sense that you dont do such thing!! and they could be doing this with any food! imagine somebody is deathly allergic to milk and she put milk in it instead??? it was not only unprofessional but also irresponsable. sad that its normal today…
thank you for taking the time and alerting people who might not know about this..
She did not witness rather overheard a conversation.
People, stop burying your heads in the sand. Here’s a video that turned up on a quick search for flight attendants cooking tips. They cook their dinner on clothes irons. Do you still think cooking steak in a stainless steel coffee pot is far fetched? Wake up and smell the coffee!!
(if I’m not mistaken) was once on a train and he asked the goy for a cup of tea, later on he saw the goy pull out a sausage and dip it into the urn!! When he came to the (I think) frierdike rebbe or rebbe rashab and told him what happnd the rebbe answerd him “you have to be very carefull with what goes in your mouth!!!!!!!!
Similar don’t you think?!?!?
Do you live in the same apartment as the Greenbergs? i live in S. Paul too! Go you!
Isn’t there also a problem of a goy cooking the coffee beans for you according to some shitas.
From what i have read about STARBUCKS BEING NOT KOSHER it is the bishul akum + kelim washed with treif. This would lechoira also apply to ice coffee as i assume all coffee is brewed first.
The Starbucks full service stores sell meat sandwiches and their coffee is not kosher due to the way the equipment is washed. The little kiosks on the turnpike or in airports can be used if the need for coffee is very strong because it is assumed the no meat products are prepared on the premises. If a driver is very tired, he can buy the coffee in the gas station or truck stop but Mountain Dew soft drink is equally caffeinated.
….post response from airline when you recieve it. Thanks.
I AGREE
Why is Starbucks any better? Who is the mashgiach there?
How do you know that your home help -babysitter or cleaning lady doesn’t heat up her lunch in your microwave?
if the airline get’s back to you
how was that bragging. she probably isnt aware that what she is doing is wrong and was just telling someone how she makes it. dont accuse people of things they didnt do. bragging would be her saying that she puts meat in the coffee pot and then serves jewish people and muslims and vegetarians from that pot. but from what you say she isnt doing it out of spite but rather ignorance.
On my past flight on southewest, I saw a steward eating chicken in the kitchen of the plane,right next to the coffee pots and I figured they may b touching the hot coffee pots with their hands before washing them so it is probably treig. I figured they might pour water directly on something treif too and with the rising steam,this can also treif up the coffee pot
LONG BEACH REPRESENT!!
El Al flights would also have a Terumah and Maaser issue on a continuous basis.
if it is metal.(and they are stainless steel as I recall) and no way will it exceed the boiling temperature for an extended period.These metal vessels are self kashering ,especially sitting on the heat source(as opposed to fifteen seconds at maximum temperature (180 to 212degrees F) As someone who has worked with most of the top kashrus agencies in America and Israel,this should be quietly addressed with the top kashrus agencies , top notch poskim and the airlines.I remember calling Rv.Marlow several times on huge event kashrus issues that I thought were impossible to use ,yet he never said no….Not… Read more »
B”H #20 where in the Alter Rebbes Shulchan Aruch does it say that
but this is a problem that can happen even in a kosher establishment with a full time mashgiach.
be careful cut fruit is also problematic you have to be careful about the knife
BH
I am amazed how every blogger and commentator has become a Posek. This story is purely anecdotal.
The Shulchan Aruch says you can drink coffee (without milk) in the home of a non-Jew.
As Hilel says, “Go and learn!”
well written and super important!
To number 3 its plane…
MAIDEL
Omg
I’m a convert to Judaism, & I have experience working in treif restaurants. Everything gets thrown into the same sinks for rinsing/washing – even the soda fountain spigets! You can not go to a fast food drive-in just for a soda without drinking from a spiget that’s been washed along with the burger and/or bacon flipper or the fry basket that’s sat in lard while the fries and/or fish cooked! Treif restaurants are completely treif – no exceptions! I’m sure the same should be held for treif plane food service – and that’s why kosher plane food must be delivered… Read more »
Although this is a terrible story one should not conclude to change the halachic status of a chazaka.
I’m not a posek, but the concept of chazaka means that we can halachikly assume something based on a common fact even though there is a minute possibility that it is not so and something as in this case is factored in as the 1 in a million. Of course it should be investigated etc and she should follow up. I”m talking to those that would want to make an outright “psak” based on this story.
that’s disgusting!!!!! thanks for sharing!
isnt the coffee pot glass in which case i dont think there would be a kashrus issue
I haveyet to meet someone who REALLY enjoys the food on the plane, i have learnt to order a FRUIT PLATTER ( i only fly El Al) and i take sandwhiches. Its great, all the fruit is cut up ready to ear, of course the problem comes at Shmitta, but there are always problems.
In addition to this problem which is indeed very rare there is a constant problem which could apply to coffee on each and every flight . The coffee pots from which they serve are washed together with all the treif utensils/ Therefore I always advise people that if you must have a coffee in flight ask the attendants to fill the PAPER cup with hot water that comes direct from the hot water spout that is built into the wall in the kitchen area from which the attendants prepare the food and get hot water to put into the pitchers… Read more »
Water boils at 212 degrees F.
If the coffee pot boils afterwards to 212 degrees F,and she washes it well with soap, it is one level of a self kashering keli ..After 24 hours cleaned,dry and unused.,and then boiled,it is a second level and much safer to drink from .Worry more about the lettuce in your salads at the end of summertime before the first frost.,warm weather fancy “spring arugala”salad mixes that are not pre washed,with a hecksher and then thoroughly washed and inspected at home .
BS”H a frum Jew has no business drinking from any public coffe pot, even the soap used to clean it is tref, so you have added nothing to the standards of Jews who are true Yira shmaim
No wonder the coffee always tastes so good!
Never understood why people drank coffee on the plane in the first place. Cholov Yisrael issues aside, the pots are washed with treif dishes. As for soda fountains, it is cold, so it may be permitted there (consult your Rav for a ruling)
Although a coffee addict, I have always refrained from using the hot liquid or coffee provided no planes.
I actually thought of having some coffee on a recent flight, b”h I didn’t do it.
I always encouraged people not to have coffee or tea on the plain. This certainly adds weight to it.
wonder if they care enough to do anything.
thank G-d i dont like coffee.
I doubt that the pot would have any meat in it but the problem is that because the pot was hot and the meat was treif it would render the pot treif. Cold food is a different question that would need to be addressed by a rav.