By Channah Sonnenfeld
“Dr. Feldman? I understand that you treat the Cohen family. Is it true that the mother suffered from post-partum depression after her son Osher was born 22 years ago, to the point where she needed medication? And on the father’s side, isn’t there a history of diabetes and high blood pressure?”
“Am I speaking to the teller at Apple Bank? Great, you can really help me. Doesn’t Mr. Schwartz have his accounts at your branch? Tell me, do they still have a mortgage on their house? Do their checks bounce for insufficient funds? How’s their credit rating?”
“Hi Suzanne. As you are the cleaning lady at the Klein residence, I wanted to ask you about their home. How filthy are the rooms when you come? What do they do with leftovers and do they recycle? Does the mother yell at the kids? her husband?”
“Is this Rothstein, Rothstein and Meyer? I’d like to speak to the attorney of Mr. Chaim Mendel. Is it correct that you handled his father’s will after his passing? Was there feuding in the family? Did the grandchildren inherit anything? How much?”
Reading these scenarios, you think “No way!” Right?!
No one would think of asking a family doctor, a bank teller, the cleaning lady or the lawyer about the family of a suggested shidduch, even for the sacred goal of ‘Avodas Habirurim’, despite the fact that they surely have accurate and pertinent information. We all know about professional ethics and clients’ right to privacy.
So, I just can’t understand why I, as a teacher and mashpia, must give detailed descriptions and in-depth analysis of my students, counselors and girls that I’m in touch with. Where is their right to privacy? Is this the way to show my appreciation of their work or to prove my discretion with thoughts they shared with me when asking for direction in their Avodas Hashem?
Yes, as part of my role I do everything in my power to help them build a Bayis Ne’emon BiYisroel, a proud and honest Jewish home. However, why can’t it be done in a more respectful manner?
Finding out information is essential before a single boy and girl go on a date – and I am glad to help, but then I receive a phone call in connection to a shidduch from someone who insists on remaining anonymous.
The caller, he or she, is in essence telling me, “I don’t trust you and I think you’re a gossip, too. I can’t let you know who I am.”
Then, how can you trust my ability to discern her level of Yiras Shomayim or give her ‘marks’ on Middos? And those questions like, “Who is more Tzniusdik, Mushkie or Chanie?” I have to be judgmental to an unknown, no strings attached, while opening myself to accusations of all sorts?
Please, help us help you!
Channah Sonnenfeld
P.S. Your number is on my caller ID, not that I have the time or interest to check it…
Channah Sonnenfeld is a teacher at Beth Chana school in Kiryat Malachi, Israel
with this article
Pictures don’t give you a true picture (no pun intended) of what the person looks and acts like in person. Everyone has a picture that makes them look better than they really are. Then you go out with them and they may not live up to the photo fantasy. Or you see something in the picture you don’t like, and you turn the person down. You might meet accidentally at a friends house and realize you turned down someone you would actually like to go out with. In my humble opinion, PICTURES are one of the causes of the Shidduch… Read more »
Please explain to me if NOBODY HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO REVEAL PERSONAL INFO ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE. then how will a mother know who her daughter or son should date? Maybe we are both translating personal information differently.
Are we suggesting the child date every suggestion? Is that fair? I think we all need a Rov to guide us.
I am an older single who, unfortunately, no longer has family working on shiduchim for me. I make a lot of reference calls without identifying myself due to the discomfort of the situation. The people I am speaking to do not know that I am single or that I am asking for myself.
Yhe word kishrei has the same letters as sheker, because there is some sheker – falsehood, given in every shidduch!
(R Aizik schwei A”H)
see comment #2. whoever that is has got some stuff straight.
NOBODY HAS THE OBLIGATION TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.
NOBODY HAS THE RESPONSIBILITY TO REVEAL PERSONAL INFO ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE.
AND THE TWO ARE CERTAINLY NOT MUTUALLY DEPENDENT.
You’re the only one here who has a sense of humor:) keep it up!
I must say I am surprised at this article. It is just fuel for bashing others and complaining about all the problems with shidduchim. I am a mother in the shidduch parsha. I think it is very simple. If I am calling an “adult” reference I always give my name. If I am a calling a friend of the person, I don’t give my name. Friends talk, they relate the wihole conversation, oftentimes not only to the prospective person, but to their group of friends and friends friends, etc. This can be damaging and ruin their chances of even going… Read more »
I agree, great idea; more guidance for shadchonim, well meaning friends who are called as references, don;t know what to say, those callling ref. not sure what to ask etc. CLARITY removes doubts and leads to better coaching & support..and better results! who can present rabbonim with this important request…maybe in honor of TU b’av approaching??
IF ANYONE WANTS SOME LIGHT ENTERTAINMENT, USE A SHADCHAN. THEY LOVE TELLING WHAT YOUR “ENTITLED TO GET AND WHO YOUR NOT”.. THEY LOVE PLAYING G-D DON’T THEY JUST.?
time for a booklet from the rabonim on what is permitted to discoles
What you write in this article makes perfectly sense, thought in reality it doesn’t work that way. Shiduch is so hard today, you can’t start making rules that if a person calls anonymously you won’t “give out” info. I feel uncomfortable when it happens, but I know that in essence I might be helping someone. For Example: I once had a bochur call me himself (his parents were not religious and he had no one to do the “research” job for him) and he felt uncomfortable to say who he was… If you can help in ANY sort of way… Read more »
I hope you don’t mean that you answer differently depending on who’s calling!
I agree with the idea of better resumes, but not the photos. I like the resume distributed by one shadchante where the client writes an essay about themselves. (If they have trouble writing let them sit down with someone who writes well, and try to capture their personality on paper.) Photos are only a flat representation of the person’s chitzoniyus.
I will not disclose any information when called about a shidduch,
unless the caller will identify themselves. I see no reason to
give out information regarding someone I may know and care about to a complete stranger. If they would liketo know about that particular individual, then they must be prepared to answer one question with regard to their identity and authenticity!
Enough enough with this shpitz, gezza, FFB and BT, sefardi and ashkenazi so stupid to stop a shidduch for that raison, believe me if it has to be MIN HASHAMAYIM not matter what it will happen, BETTER TO KEEP YR KIDS HAPPY MARRIED AND NOT TO TURN THEM AS ENNEMIES so stop and push yr kids to marry off any good person with yirhas shamayim, good values in family, smart, intelligent, capable, good worker, DO NOT LET THEM IN A CLOSET, THEY GET MORE OLDER AND MORE PICKY, SO STOP YR RESEARCH AND LET HASHEM DO HIS WORK .. WITH… Read more »
there is way too much loshon hara and bad words spreading throughout the Jewish communities especially in Lubavitch that ruins a possible shidduch! I am a good, kind, sweet shidduch age girl and I have had my own experiences and it hurts so much that there is so much of this hatred and loshon hara spreading around the CH community! This is exactly what destroyed the Bais Hamikdash Good words, kind deeds will help bring Moshiach closer and closer! Starting with you 😀
Did you ever hear of people who are photogenic and those that are not? Some people showed beautiful pictures – and at the first date they were terribly disappointed that the girl did not look like her photo! Sheker ahchein v’hevel hayofi etc. Real ch emistry comes from learning the real long term qualities the girl has. Hatzlocha!l
There can NOT be chemistry with a picture. A person has a personality rhat goes along with their looks. You judging from a picture is unfair.
I have 3 kids that will need marriages Gd willing and after reading all this I am totally discouraged and Im wondering that maybe they should date and find their own like others do. I cannot go thru this torturous process with calling and wondering who is lying etc.This is a good system? Not in my book.
what are you talking about?
If a picture is asked of the girl, then the boy should provide one too. Its a two-way street. And yes I agree pics are important for both sides.
I am bocher cuttently going through the shidduch process
Of course you need a picture!!! if there is no chemistry there is never going to be a happy marriage.
If we are the champions of ahavas yisroel (because we learn chassidus and are shluchim of the Rebbe) how can we not make hachnossaas kallah happen (which is a hallmark of ahavas yisroel)? How come so many boys and girls of age (from 20 to 30) are roaming on the streets (without their plag gufah)? The most important element of hachnassas kallah, is not so much dancing at the wedding or even helping with the funds to make the wedding but the essential making of the match? How come Lubavitch lags behind hachanassas kallah (one of the highest aspects of… Read more »
Glad to see this brought up!
Why do you find it necessary to see a picture?? are you afraid she wont be looking enough?? because all the boys are all so put together and handsome??? im bh married for a while made several shidduchim myself and never used pictures, never understood why boys or their parents feel entitled to demand/request a picture and i still dont understand. meet the girl and you will find out then how she looks
Do you have any sons available? I have girls for you!
Great ones!
Gut Shabbos!
The whole point of these phone calls is to find out the person’s personality. In our system, we don’t automatically meet with any random person. First we try to find out about them and see if it is “shayach”. The point is not to dig up dirt. I am a shidduch age girl and I get a lot of anonymous reference calls. I give a description of the person, no negative, no exaggerated positive – which is relative, btw. If you want to know what the girl is like you don’t have to send your son out to meet her… Read more »
more shidduchum will be if you dress tznius
It’s the responsibility and decency shown by giving your name,
for example if i’m calling from Australia and you are in new york,
Unfortunately, the lack of confidentiality in our community is not limited to shidduchim. People don’t do it maliciously, but everyones personal business seems to spread like wildfire.
Two questions I was recently asked: How old was she when she was toilet trained? and How do you think her Shabbos table would be set? AND I am NOT kidding!!!
Is there any wonder why there is a “shidduch crisis”?
You create your own crisis.
The Rebbe speaks/writes about the IKUR and the TOFEL. The ikur the Rebbe calsl a “yesod chomri” – a substantial foundation. The tofel is the secondary points – which might be quite irritating – such as lack of yichus, lack of money, not wellknown family, a divorce in the family, a not Miss America girl etc etc. However, the Rebbe says – if the IKUR is there – they are suited in the main, important aspects – one must FIND a way to make the tofel acceptable. And the Rebbe even mentions, there is tofel d’tofel – there can be… Read more »
One of the problems with anonymous callers is that there is no way to return their call when you find out the information they want to know. I had that problem and missed the call from the family and had no idea how to reach them. Then it was on my conscience that the girl didn’t have a chance.
I might be going off the topic. but, my theory for one of the problems why we have a shidduch crises is, Did you notice in the past few years there are no girls at the wedding. when I say no girls I mean when a girl is finally getting married and I come to the wedding there is only a small circle of her close friends. Where is the rest if the 100 or so classmates? how come they don’t have the time to come and dance for a classmate of theirs that they sat in the same building… Read more »
I loved your article.
My advice is, who cares what they expect? you’re the one with your head on straight so it’s up to you. Let them ask all they want. If someone calls me anonymously then they get the answers due a stranger, nothing more.
I think that people these days are researching reasons to say “no” rather than find out about the person. here is what I feel. #1 I always say there is no right or wrong answer, just want to know if they are on the same basic level, frum, intellectually,physically and emotionally. #2 I want to know if the family is honest and menchlach, warm and loving. #3 since no one is going to say anything bad for any of these things what I listen for, is the tone. is there enthusiasm ? does their voice light up?is there hesitation? so… Read more »
that is the most disgusting thing to bring as an example ,if father is gezza and mother is sefardi shame on you ! we are all jews when will ppl understand this?!
when i get a phone call to give info, and they don’t want to say who they are, i do not answer for the simple reason that i will be quoted and i have to defend myself from people not saying the truth, no reason not to introduce your self. it’s simple derech eretz
It’s the parents fault the children are not married! Instead of them pushing themselves to find the right match they invalidate every prospect for their bachur (and when it is their girls turn they scream bloody murder). The Torah says that the father has an obligation to marry off his child (which is btw something else in this community: almost all fathers are not doing *their* job). Off course, you have to find the proper prospect , but since it’s probably there, then they aer not donig the job if the boy is still unmarried after he no longer is… Read more »
this article highlights just one of the many problems we face today with shidduchim within the chabad community! to actually fone someone for an opinion on a girl and then to blatantly say you do not trust her?! something is very wrong here and personally i feel it all comes back to one word- RESPECT!!!!! if you would call with respect if the shadchan would reply to email or phonecall even just to say im busy right now if the boys would treat the girls with respect – a common occurence today being a boy knowing straight away on shidduch… Read more »
I agree with you one hundred percent. The “resumes” (which should be called a profile – minor detail ) are totally useless. Just a whole bunch of fluff, I mean who would put a reference that won’t say something good about them? Nobody wants to feel like a mean person who may have ruined someone’s shidduch, but then, when you have this great offer on paper, great references, great job, great personality traits etc…and so you do go out on a date and come to realize not even 20 min in that s/he is not even remotely the type of… Read more »
I would have thought a teacher in our education system would have more understanding of these matters.
Parents cannot give away their name because info gets passed back about who has been inquiring, which can be harmful to the person asking and the children being questioned. This way protects their privacy more.
What is the alternative to learning about the child, meeting in a pub, in a bar, like the rest of the world? This is not a perfect system but its the system YOU advocate and there is no alternative.
If yes, the person that listed you as a reference has full trust that the information you divulge will not hamper the shidduch. If there are learning difficulties or medical issues, as a reference you should be discussing with the subject to what extent information should be shared. Be diplomatic, do not compare but be honest. And if you can’t, DON’T BE A REFERENCE.
Why should you have to know which family is looking into which girl/boy?!
This Mechaneches is 100% right. If you want someone to be honest with you, you MUST identify yourself. You want to be able to quote the person’s comments freely, but they in return, have absolutely no idea who you are, and they will never be able to defend themselves,if need be.You will have the liberty to go around saying that this and this person said this and this about a certain person,and you can lie and fabricate things all in the name of a person, who can never speak up for themselves because they will never know,who you are. You… Read more »
Pinchos had 2 Grandfathers, his fathers father was Aharon the “Choen Godol” , his mothers father was Yisro the “Pope” (lehavdil).
Rashi in first Possuk; why does it say “Pinchos ben Elazar ben Aharon Hacohen” ?? we know already who his parents are….
Answer: in order to teach us that when the mother and father are from different yichus, lemoshol if father’s gezza and mother’s Sefaradi, we go after the father ……..So when it comes to Shiduchim you should know what to look at. LOL
I can understand someone trying to stay anonymous, not because of lack of trust but rather not to make waves and have people start “talking”. (Respecting someones privacy – but thats another topic). On the other hand some of the questions asked are so crazy that it is almost a waste of time to try to answer. In no way will this help to bring about a shidduch – if anything it can only harm it. Ask questions that are important! Don’t ask hypothetical narishkeit. Good luck to all!
DEALING WITH SHIDDUCHIM, JUST CRAZY !!!! PARENTS ARE EXPECTING WE SHOULD READ RESUMES AND SPEND MORE TIME ON THEM TO SIMPLIFY THEIR JOB, YES AGREE BUT WHOM WILL PAY US ????? ANYONE ASK THIS QUESTION ENOUGH TIME SPENDING ON THE PHONE, WHO IS PAYING US ??? TODAY UNTIL A SHIDDUCH IS DONE NEVER MIND JUST FOR A DATE WITHOUT THE PARENTS INTERFERE, TIME CONSUMED IN EXCHANGING PROFILES, TALKING AND CONVINCING WHY THIS NAME MORE THEN THE OTHERS… RECALLING TO FOLLOW UP, EXCHANGING THE DOR YESHORIM, AND SETTING UP THE DATE AND NOW PARENTS ARE EXPECTING CALLING REFERS.IT’S A JOKE, WILL… Read more »
I have received phone calls in the past, as well, from “anonymous” and I kindly inform “anonymous” that I will not reveal information about someone unless I know to whom I’m speaking. It is just common decency and mentchlichkeit to say hello and give your name when speaking on the phone.
You cannot be more right on all points! I tried to bring this subject up many times. Most profiles have almost no info besides, name, DOB, Yeshivos, and references, an no pictures. Does anyone else agree more should be done? Check out MyShidduch.net.
where are you going with this?
to be private, or not to be?
That is the question, unless you tell me you r name, and ill tell you her social????
they are entitled to privacy just as much as you want to know there name.
What is the point with this?
So basically, you just want to know the people that are calling you? what for? cmon! this is just plain lame.
you dont like anonymous, dont talk, but golly, to write this as if your entitled to know their name…
I dealt with many parents that would prefer to date the other side first. Since it “pahst nisht” they want to date the other side over the phone by asking all these questions to the friends. Parents that do this prolong their child’s pain. They convince themselves it is in the best interest of their kids, IT IS NOT. They think it is what is more Chassidish IT IS NOT. It is the same old garbage from the older generation trying to control the younger generation. Get a life parents the shiduch crisis is all YOUR FAULT.
Shidduchim is a touchy subject. So hard in todays times. Shadchonim should be requesting more thorough resumes so less research is needed and each resume should include photos of the person. and perhaps the shadchan redding the shidduch should be the one to find out if the information is true.
If you are listed as a reference on a girl’s profile, then you should not have a problem with the anonymous caller since the girl and her family have already “given rishus” for you to speak freely about her. As a mother, I have no problem revealing who I am when I call yeshivas and shlichus etc. and speak to hanhalah who are mature adults (most of whom have marriageable age children themselves). On the other hand, if and when I call a “friend” of the bochur from the reference list, I do not reveal my name, unless I know… Read more »
i think her point is that “if u dont trust me with your name cause u think ill abuse the info (by tellings others etc.) then why should i trust you with info (perhaps you will abuse the info by tellling others etc.”
“Where is their right to privacy?” I agree – they definitely have a right to privacy. But then you say that if you know the name of the caller you are ready to violate the girl’s privacy! “I have to be judgmental to an unknown.” You shouldn’t be judgmental to anyone! Unknown, known, what’s the difference? Violating privacy is violating privacy. If you feel you shouldn’t say something, why does it become kosher just because you know who the caller is? The girl you are speaking about has not given you permission to violate her privacy just because you happen… Read more »
Usually ppl say nice things so i find the phonecalls for info usually are not to helpful.